No limits to immigration

[Phil H]

On Saturday, shopping in Birmingham city centre (UK) I saw the following inthe window of a shop called LUSH (which sells soaps and cosmetics.

"People should be free to live and work wherever they wish and enjoy all of the same rights as all other residents"

The link to that slogan and a full article can be found here:

http://www.lush.co.uk/articles/our-ethical-campaigns/no-one-is-illegal_100-10280_10.html

Taking the slogan alone, it struck me that such an approach could have serious implications for:

• jobs - if foreign workers willing to work for less play flood into a country
  
• taxpayers - who would have to pay for immigrants until they found work, but could also leave at a moments notice
  
• defence - the risk of undesirables and terrorists entering the country
  
• housing - increased competition for limited stocks
  
• culture and language - the native culture and language could be threatened by those from outside
  
• education - coming and going would put huge pressure on schools, cause language problams etc.

That is just the tip of the ice-berg it seems to me.

The article appears to quote polling that (to some extent) supports their cause - but how would home owners, workers, taxpayers react if it happened, not only here but (and surely this would be a key factor in such a policy) in every country in the world?

It makes me think back to anarchistic dreams I heard others talk about back in the 70s.

But what do others think?

Phil

[Sister Hyde]

I think: I've lived abroad for almost 8 years, working my ass off, learning the languages, and fighting to blend in a foreigner culture (not so far though), and in the end what did I get for it?? the day that company had to kick 70% of the staff because of the crise in the industry, they left me to starve and to live on the street while i was over 4 months pregnant, the dutch social services telling me "you have no rights here, so go back to your country or else the immigration police from Zwolle will deport you back" no matter how hard i was working no matter what high taxes i was paying for years, and no matter that i had a citizen number and was paying for insurances for years. ended up threatened, starving so bad that my child was almost dead at birth, living on the street or in squats to avoid being seriously agressed in my own home (cause yes the police also ignores you when you're a foreigner), fighting in courts for rights that i had but that nobody gave a damn about, to finally give birth alone on my 3rd week without food, only drinking as many liters of water I could and sleeping 22 hours a day to avoid feeling how ****ed up I was. so I say: hurray for the european union!!!!... what a bunch of crap!

[babybird67]

i feel there is a lot of hypocrisy in debates about immigration

People here in the UK would be up in arms if it was suggested they couldn't exercise their right to emigrate to Spain to retire when they wanted to etc. If people want the freedom to emigrate, then by definition they are 'immigrants' to another country and would not want that curtailed.

Speaking about free movement of people in theory is all very well, but most people don't just up and move at a moment's notice. They have roots, families, connections, where they live and grow up, so a nightmare scenario of flux and chaos would be unlikely to happen.

Personally, i believe we are all human beings, and a lot of problems come from the erection and defence of geographical boundaries. Perhaps if we all started to think in the mindset that the world belongs to everyone it would cause fewer conflicts around the world and everyone could live in peace.

Jen

[The Bounder]

As far as I am aware most immigrants have to work for at least a year uninterupted before they qualify for benifits. This means they have already paid into the system before they take out of it.

Also the jobs that most immigrants fall into are low paid manual labour. I don't know if anyone remembers that interesting study the BBC did about a year ago. It took a dozen unemployed people who regularly espouse the old tommyrot of 'they come over here taking our jobs' and gave them the oppotunity of doing the work the immigrant community largely fall into, none of the British people involved in the study managed to keep the employment for the period aloted, finding the back breaking toil too hard for them.

I think the bigger problem within the system (and this is going slightly off topic) is people who have been born and brought up in this country who have a mindset that the government owing them a living, spending their entire lives on benifits and then passing this attitude onto their children. I work with people on a daily basis who have this mindset and one of the things the young kids say to me today is 'why should I get up out of bed for an extra 50-100 quid a week and have to work for it?' Pride perhaps? Or sense of improved self respect? No that doesn't wash with them. I think that the benifits and taxing system is more likely to collapse with this extra weight put on it and an ever aging population than any strain from extra immigration.

I don't think anyone could argue with immigrants with skills we could use entering the country or indeed people with an entrepenerial spirit willing to start their own business and make a go of it, who will in turn pump hundreds/thousands/millions back into the system via tax, and the extra employment oppotunities these can bring to their neighbourhoods.

I do worry however that a policy of no limits immigration would play right into the hands of right wing extremists, giving them more fuel for their horrid propaganda, linking immigrants to crimewaves and rising unemployment etc.

[The Good Michael]

How about something like: Immigrants who are unskilled must serve 2 years in some service capacity and gain fluency in the language, regardless of gender or age. Upon completion of service, they can apply for residency. If they commit any crime, no matter how petty, we send them to Van Dieman's Land. Oh wait! We already tried that. I'm out of options.

The discussion of any of this kind of thing means that value judgments must be made upon who is able to emigrate, and then laws are enacted, and it all becomes unfair for everyone as quotas are created and no exceptions are made. I like the idea of projecting what growth will be happening in a country and then going with that number of immigrants -10%. I also don't believe that an accepted immigrant should necessarily be able to bring his/her family because each case should be considered individually. Start with skilled people, and if there is still need, go to the unskilled. I do believe a probationary period is necessary and the learning of the language of the government, and that these people should be watched like a hawk. If they can't get it together in two years, or at least pretend to, they go back.

Mike

[Sister Hyde]

If they can't get it together in two years, or at least pretend to, they go back.

Mike

that would be rather fair, but since it can not even be applied in so called "devellopped" countries where it is already supposed to be the law, I hardly see how it will work.

[Errata]

"People should be free to live and work wherever they wish and enjoy all of the same rights as all other residents"

Well, of course they should. People should be free of starvation, religious persecution, violence, abusive governments, war, illness, natural disaster, crime, pollution, lack of civil rights, genocide, poverty, inconvenience, splinters, rude shopkeepers, road rage, etc.

but in the immortal words of the Stones:
"You can't always get what you want."

Or in the immortal words of my Rabbi:
"'Should' is an infantile cop-out to problem solving"

"Somebody should do something about this!" and we turn on our governments and say "Why aren't you doing something about it?" ans they say "Are you going to pay for it? Because everything costs money..." and we get really quiet and slowly disperse and the real question is "Why don't WE do something about this?"

The things we really want we get. We get a defense network and bombs. We get roads, and sidewalks, and cops and EMTs and we get days off on holidays, and the right to sue the guy who totaled our car, and mail. We get water, electricity, and tv. We pay for these things, but we want them so we get them.

We don't want foreigners having the rights of citizens any more than we want to end Malaria. If we did, we'd give up TV for it wouldn't we?

[TomTomKent]

Immigration is simply not the problem that most UK media seems to want to portray it as. Figures for the number of foreign job seekers, foreign employees and criminals have been fudged horribly. Most of the bad press is the same kind of trite that declares elf n safety or the EU "banning" almost everything. Little tip; if somebody pretends they aren't racist they want an open and honest debate they are probably being neither.

The actual figures are not only far from alarming (the majority of eastern european immigrantstaking temporary jobs then going home for example, or the amount of taxes raised from immigration, and so forth) they are rather dull.

[babybird67]

and...

it's only recently immigration has exceeded emigration anyway.

BRITISH EMIGRATION
Migration is not a one-way street. There is also substantial emigration from the UK. For almost 20 years from the early 1960s the UK was losing more people abroad than it was gaining from immigration - many of whom answered a call to start a new life in Australia. British people still leave - and the favoured destinations remain English-speaking destinations, plus Spain and France. But the numbers have now dropped

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7737490.stm

[Natalie Severn]

People here in the UK would be up in arms if it was suggested they couldn't exercise their right to emigrate to Spain to retire when they wanted to etc. If people want the freedom to emigrate, then by definition they are 'immigrants' to another country and would not want that curtailed.

Speaking about free movement of people in theory is all very well, but most people don't just up and move at a moment's notice. They have roots, families, connections, where they live and grow up, so a nightmare scenario of flux and chaos would be unlikely to happen.

Personally, i believe we are all human beings, and a lot of problems come from the erection and defence of geographical boundaries. Perhaps if we all started to think in the mindset that the world belongs to everyone it would cause fewer conflicts around the world and everyone could live in peace.

Jen

Very much agree with your post Jen,

[caz]

People here in the UK would be up in arms if it was suggested they couldn't exercise their right to emigrate to Spain to retire when they wanted to etc. If people want the freedom to emigrate, then by definition they are 'immigrants' to another country and would not want that curtailed.

Speaking about free movement of people in theory is all very well, but most people don't just up and move at a moment's notice. They have roots, families, connections, where they live and grow up, so a nightmare scenario of flux and chaos would be unlikely to happen.

Personally, i believe we are all human beings, and a lot of problems come from the erection and defence of geographical boundaries. Perhaps if we all started to think in the mindset that the world belongs to everyone it would cause fewer conflicts around the world and everyone could live in peace.

Jen

I agree too!

If we ever had a hostile visit from another planet, people would soon lose their irrational fear and loathing of human beings from other parts of our world.

Love,

Caz
X

[Stephen Thomas]

If we ever had a hostile visit from another planet, people would soon lose their irrational fear and loathing of human beings from other parts of our world.

I think it's a little more complicated than that, Caz. In the old days you worked or starved if you emigrated to the UK. Now people from other climes can step off the plane and get their rent paid and nip off to the post office and get wads of £20 pound notes (from your and my taxes) without lifting a finger. No way am I politically right wing but there are many things amiss here. The UK Social Security system was designed after WW2 to be a safety net for UK citizens who had fallen on hard times, not for people from anywhere in the world who can manage to get here.

That said, them East European builders are well cheap

[Bob Hinton]

People here in the UK would be up in arms if it was suggested they couldn't exercise their right to emigrate to Spain to retire when they wanted to etc. If people want the freedom to emigrate, then by definition they are 'immigrants' to another country and would not want that curtailed.
Jen

I wondered how long it would take for this hoary old chestnut to be dredged up yet again! A few facts, people who retire to Spain do not go begging, they do not run drugs rings, they do not traffic in human beings, they do not form organised crime gangs, they do not commit rape, murder, assault and robbery on a daily basis and they do not perform terrorist acts. They do not lie, cheat and steal from their hosts and defraud the host countries of millions of pounds.

What they do though is bring wealth, jobs and trade to the area they settle in.

According to police sources seven of the top ten most dangerous gangs in Britain are now run by immigrants - that is people who have been in this country for less than 20 years.

[Bob Hinton]

I agree too!

If we ever had a hostile visit from another planet, people would soon lose their irrational fear and loathing of human beings from other parts of our world.

Love,

Caz
X

So if as you say our fear and loathing of other human beings is irrational - would you go and live in Zimbabwe or Somalia? I think not because you would find that your fear and loathing of certain people is far from 'irrational', but simply a device mechanism to keep you alive.

[babybird67]

A few facts, people who retire to Spain do not go begging, they do not run drugs rings, they do not traffic in human beings, they do not form organised crime gangs, they do not commit rape, murder, assault and robbery on a daily basis and they do not perform terrorist acts. They do not lie, cheat and steal from their hosts and defraud the host countries of millions of pounds.

Right, so it's a 'fact' that all immigrants are criminals and all emigrants model citizens? Right.

The discussion is about immigration, not about criminal behaviour of SOME immigrants. There is a difference.