Ken Clarke - His views on Rape.

[Sister Hyde]

actually it wasn't a barbie "nurse", my appologie, it was barbie "doctor", cause she even had her consultation room and her stetoscope

[caz]

I'm not sure what any of that had to do with what I was saying, Sister, but when I said 'most of us girls', I was including my daughter, who is only 23 now, and knew her own mind at the age of 16 at least as well as I did back in 1970.

Neither of us played with dolls much, incidentally.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sister Hyde]

no no it does have to do Caz, I'm not saying girls give false consent, they do give consent and they pretty much know what they are doing, they just tend to do it for the wrong reason and tend not to see it and enjoy it as they would some years later. what's I'm saying is nowaday, the environment of the girls is pushing them to do it a bit too quickly and with less thought or care for what the act is supposed to represent. basically I'm the same age as your daughter, when I was younger, it wasn't a tabou, but it wasn't a casualty either, not something you just do cause it's what everyone does, we were still seeing it as something of importance. I think it has to do a lot with the surrounding too, whatever channel you look at, it's always presented as "nothing".

[Rubyretro]

Sister -I don't think you can generalise since people mature at different rates.

My step daughter (now 24) started sleeping with her 28 year old boyfriend
when he was 28 and she was 14. I was horrified and assumed that he was a pedeophile straight away, and my husband demanded to meet him alone to talk about the situation -and came back saying that he was such a 'kid' (he was still wearing baggy trousers and a back to front baseball cap and lived with his mother)), but my husband had pleaded with him not to 'break his daughter's heart'.

Well, after a few years of going steady, Yasmine (my step daughter) was obliged to give the guy an ultimatum to get him to move in with her. Alex (her man) rang his mum every day, didn't drive, didn't work or clear up and
played rave music all night when Yasmine wanted to study. Finally she dumped the guy for being "too immature " and he rang my husband sobbing that she had broken his heart.

She is now a married mother of one and expecting another, a qualified teacher, and looking to buy her own home. Infact, I find her house very old fogeyish and 'grown up' (I'm 51 !). So you could say that she was just 'in advance' for her age.

My mum had me when she was 19, and is still married to my father.

I appreciate that the law is obliged to draw line somewhere as to the age of consent, but in reality -it depends on the individual
as to whether they can make a real decision.

I am amazed that you, Sister, ( did you say 23 ?) think that things were different when you were a teenager ?? They were the same when I was young. In my Girl's School no half way good looking man could pass without being the target of our seductive powers -and we certainly knew what we were doing.

[Sister Hyde]

Now Ruby like I said to Caz, I don't disagree with that, I know maturing is different by everyone, in fact I was in the exact same situation as your step-daughter myself, my first i got age 14 and he was 26. and i ended up dumping him almost 6 years later, for the exact same reasons...and yes I know back then already the girls were seductive and so on, but it was still considered as something more important than how girls see it now, and certainly in your girl school you didn't have more than half of your class refering to themselves as they boyfriends' "bitch" or "hooker" or "slut", like i constantly kept hearing in the recess yards. when I was a teen I thought we were already way more screwed up than our parents and even elder brothers and sisters (especially me), but I can not ignore everything I have noted during the last 5 years being so much in contact with teenagers.

[Rubyretro]

Hi , Sister -no, we would have been totally horrified that any one (let alone ourselves) would refer to us as 'bitches' , hookers' or 'sluts'.

I don't think that sex had a momentous 'importance' though (although, as I said it's hard to generalise for other people).

It was about practising your seductive powers, learning, gaining experience, curiosity..

I still have a group of school friends, so I think that I can speak for 'us', if I say that some of the us kept the blokes that we slept with as close mates to this day, some drifted away, some turned out to be long term but some for a night or two..but some were bad experiences which we still learn't from but prefer to forget..

I think that I would be more seriously worried if my kids chose to wear a chastity ring, rather than if they were mildly promiscuous. I would definitely be worried if, as teenagers, they started talking about the 'importance' of sex. But I wouldn't stand for them talking about bitches and sluts.

I think that I would tell them that sexual compatibility is of primordial importance in a relationship that you want to be long term. Otherwise it's just an 'experience' -good or bad. Not important.

When it comes to rape, there is a world of difference between genuinely consenting or non-consenting. Personally, I think that things have gone too far in the woman's sense now. And yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

[Errata]

Well, then there are always cases where you are 15 and on an audition and you face the casting couch for the first time, and the director points out all the other girls who have done it, both girls in line before you and famous actresses. And you think maybe you look older, because the part is for a college age girl, and it's a real roll, and one that could get you out of a hick town where everyone seems to hate you. And how bad could it be really? people seem to want to do it all the time? But he gets pissed when you start crying in the middle of things and throws you out without your clothes, calls you a whore, and announces that "That's now how casting gets done around here" for the benefit of parents in the hallway.

[Sister Hyde]

Errata my dear, I seriously hope that's not how it went for you cause that's a good reason to spend an afternoon every week on your shrink's couch for the rest of your days instead.

Ruby, welcome to a world where already in the couple of years preceeding high school the girls in the yard at school call their bfs their "pimps", and where it's common finding 13 year old kids having sex in the school's bathroom (yes yes I ain't lying it's been happening in almost every schgool). I think the law about having cponsented sex with minor is not really supposed to be about rape, but mostrly to try to do some girls a favor in some circumstances, I remember about a year ago 2 teens, the girl twelve and the boy thirteen, busted in the bathroom of their school, the little girl giving a fellatio to that boy, of course at first they grabbed the boy and started to go hard on him, then suddenly the boy said "but she's the one who said "if you eat my ****, I'll suck your dick", and indeed the girl confirmed that she was the one telling him to first "eat her ****"). I think you see it better when you're in charge of the "sex ed" and you suddenly get a lot of ****ed up quesrtion from the kids concerning a so called "friend". don't make me give you examples cause pfff i wouldn't know where to start, but back when i was teaching languages in high school in Uddevalla a girl I had in last year got gonorrhea, and as so, no matter how old the person is, they have to tell all the partners they've had in the past few month, well the parents hgad to find a new school for the girl cause it turned out she actually had to tell 9 guys from the school....she was only 16.
So yes, I definitely do think teens should be able to satisfy their curiosity or their "love", but I don't agree with how it is seen today, today they seem to think it's casualty and that it doesn't mean anything further. and that I don't agree with. getting out of a retarded society where all is dirty and all is tabou yes, but building a society where women think it's normal to call their man their "pimp" and where it is normal to find thongs in size "12 years" in clothes stores, no I do not agree. If our girls wanna live their childhood longer, they shouldn't feel pushed to grow up too fast

[DVV]

Mouais....bof.....pas d'accord......ce pauvre monde part en couilles totalement...j'aurais jamais pensé que j'étais hors la loi quand j'étais minot et que j'amenais ma copine sur la plage....et Chuck Berry n'est pas pédophile parce qu'il a chanté "Sweet Little 16"....Cela dit, je préfère les femmes mûres, aaaargh...!

[Sister Hyde]

ah te voila monsieur D. je me suis dit "tiens il doit etre en vacance" et non David tu n'étais pas hors la loi, et oui le monde se barre en couille, moi même je millitais pour que les parents arrete de claquer leur fimlles de 16 ans qui demandait la pillule, car trop de tabou pousse aussi les jeunes a faires des conneries encore plus grosses par derriere, mais au lieu de ça, on dédramatise tellement que les jeunes filles pensent que "c'est rien" "c'est normal" et que y'a pas de mal à commence alors qu'ils sont meme pas encore réellement ado parce qu'ils pensent serieusement que c'est normal, et perso je trouve pas vraiument ce genre de chose normal, une romance avec ta chérie sur la plage c'est normal, après emmener ta chérie dans des toilettes alors que t'as 14 ans....franchement je pense pas que ce soit une tres bonne base pour une vie sexuelle épanouie lorsqu'elle atteindront l'âge adulte

[DVV]

Je comprends, mais en même temps, ce mélange de pornographie à outrance et de criminalisation/moralisation galopante me paraît pire que tout.
Pour la romance, heu....c'est juste que la boîte de nuit où j'allais quand j'avais 15 ans était en face de la plage...et qu'on ne pouvait pas ramener les filles à la maison ou aller à l'hôtel.
Là encore, en parlant de boîte (même si je les abhorre aujourd'hui), on constate qu'on a encore perdu des libertés...A l'époque, on buvait autant qu'on voulait et les établissements ne risquaient pas grand chose...bien sûr, on va me dire que servir des mineurs patati patata...et merde !

A part ça, j'espère que tu vas bien cara mia (suis pas en vacances, suis à fond dans l'ouverture de mon bar sans modération)

[Errata]

Am I wrong in thinking that a person who is physically incapable of appreciating the consequences of their actions are physically incapable of informed consent? We aren't okay with normal people having sex with the profoundly brain damaged or developmentally delayed people. Nor should we be. Yet because a 16 year old has boobs, we assume she has a fully developed brain, which every scientific study shows she doesn't. Two sixteen year olds having sex, assuming there is consent, well, thats a bad decision. A 23 year old having sex with a 16 year old? That's predation. How do you know it's predation? Look at the face of the average college guy bragging about bedding a 16 year old girl. Or the look on a woman's face when she talks about her new lover who is 15, and how it seems like she's talking about someone else.

Older people have sex with what teenagers represent. Cheerleaders. High School romances. Old memories in the backseats of cars. It doesn't matter what 16 year old they screw. It matters that they're 16. That's a little sociopathic.

[Sister Hyde]

crois moi David, ça reste toujours 100 fois plus romantique que ce que j'entends sortir de la bouche des gamines de 15 ans ici. tiens vu qu'on parle en francais je vaios t'en profiter ppour te raconter un truc qui malheureusement est "banal" de nos jours, ma petite cousine, 16 and nous sors à table y'a quelque mois "bah moi ma 1ere fois ct en vacances en espagne avec ce gars du camping dans les toilettes, mais on avait pas de capote alors il m'a sodomisée".... en gros... en plus d'être ultra glauque, elle avait 14 ans.... tu imagine bien la tete de la famille, j'ai cru que mon mediteraneen de père allait pleurer.
sinon les etablissement c'est de l'hypocrisie, les mineurs quand ils veulent tiser bah ils font comme moi pour acheter mon pilon, ils vont voir ailleurs et ils trouvent de toute façon je crois que les deux sont un probleme, la criminilisation pousse au vice et la pornographie à outrance dénature la chose.

[DVV]

Mazette ! - est le mot qui me vient à l'esprit.
Dangereux, le camping en Espagne. Je le savais.

[DVV]

Am I wrong in thinking that a person who is physically incapable of appreciating the consequences of their actions are physically incapable of informed consent? We aren't okay with normal people having sex with the profoundly brain damaged or developmentally delayed people. Nor should we be. Yet because a 16 year old has boobs, we assume she has a fully developed brain, which every scientific study shows she doesn't. Two sixteen year olds having sex, assuming there is consent, well, thats a bad decision. A 23 year old having sex with a 16 year old? That's predation. How do you know it's predation? Look at the face of the average college guy bragging about bedding a 16 year old girl. Or the look on a woman's face when she talks about her new lover who is 15, and how it seems like she's talking about someone else.

Older people have sex with what teenagers represent. Cheerleaders. High School romances. Old memories in the backseats of cars. It doesn't matter what 16 year old they screw. It matters that they're 16. That's a little sociopathic.

I tend to agree, but on the other hand, all these reasonings mean sex = crime, or sex = danger. That's nothing but a cultural or moral point of view. So I don't know.