Heaven Is a Fairy Tale Says Physicist Stephen Hawking

[Fleetwood Mac]

[QUOTE=Steven Russell;175592]

Surely you can see the evil which has been committed over the centuries in the name of God: an entirely imaginary being.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[QUOTE]

The most misleading statement I've ever heard in my life, and the one that abdicates responsibility like no other is this: "religion is the root of all evil".

In the event there is no god, then surely religion is a human construct, so, presumably, human beings are the problem as opposed to religion or god?

[Errata]

Your compassion does you credit, Errata. But surely in the grand scheme of things, it is wrong to encourage people to believe in that which does not exist.

Surely you can see the evil which has been committed over the centuries in the name of God: an entirely imaginary being.

Best wishes,
Steve.

PS Not to mention a complete psycho nutter if the Old Testament is to be believed.

Hahah. Yeah as a Jew when people talk about a "kind and Loving god" I ask what bible are THEY reading? Cause ours is pissy and vengeful.

I'm in a weird position, because I am not a fan of G-d, I just can't seem to not believe. Like, we don't talk. I want to be left alone, I leave him alone. I don't go to services and theres an occasional one sided shouting match. So I'm really not your average believer.

But, do I want people to believe in things that don't exist? I do. Justice only exists if we work at it and believe it is possible. Same for peace, enlightenment, advancement. Someone had to believe in a car before a car could exist.

I don't know if heaven exists. It doesn't really feature in my half of the book. I certainly can't prove it exists, on the other hand I can't prove it doesn't. I don't think believing in it is harmful. I was reading about quantum physics, and how we keep needing more dimensions to make the math work. Euclidean had your standard three, Einstein added a fourth, String Theory has ten I think. Well, how many dimensions are there? We can actually prove all three are true. But if there are 10, why didn't Einstein see it? Does that mean that special relativity is wrong? But if we are adding dimensions only to make the math work, then maybe the math is wrong and we have no idea how many dimensions are hanging about. Maybe there were three, until Einstein created a fourth, and then Nielsen left one out and created another seven. If we create our own reality, then I'm pretty sure there is a Heaven. If we are just trying to identify all of the dimensions that might be lurking out there, well, for all I know one of them is Heaven.

One of the wonderful things we get out of Quantum mechanics is the Schroedinger's Cat postulate. We know through math and experiment that the act of observing disturbs the observed. If we expect light to be a particle, it will be. If we expect it to be a ray, it will be. We profoundly affect our surrounds simply through expectation and belief. Supernatural mind powers are mathematically possible. Physicists are now looking at the nature of the human soul. Maybe G-d is like a car. Maybe he didn't exist before someone thought him up. But cars are real.

Of course evils have been perpetuated in the name of Religion. It's also been perpetuated in the name of Economy, National Pride, Shipping Rights, and I'm not even a little sure what the Falkland Islands was about. Evil in the name of what is holy is still evil. Good in the name of the blasphemous is still good. Good things happen in the name of religion too. Not necessarily as spectacular, but more pervasively. If Catholics burned Jews at the stake, they also hid them from the Nazis. If Muslims blew up the Trade Centers, they also have risked everything translating and escorting our soldiers. Copts joined hands around Muslims at Tahrik square to protect them while at prayer. Muslims created a human wall around an old Jewish cemetery to protect it from bulldozers a few miles away, and on September 11, a bunch of us from my congregation formed a human wall around their mosque while rednecks with guns cruised by slowly. It's a melange, like most of the human experience. I know we stood up because we thought if they saw that Jews of all people were protecting them, then people would think twice. We used the perceived animosity between two groups to make a statement. And I think it was a good statement to make.

I think we hate that Religion is one of those things we can't talk people out of. No one has ever convinced a 20 year old boy that he doesn't actually know what love feels like either but we keep trying. If we as a people outgrow religion that's fine. But we have to do it on our time, and forcing it is typically violently counterproductive. I mean, a lot of people have a god in their lives on the same level as their parents. You wouldn't try to convince a guy his mother is worthless sham of a relationship, even though by adulthood parents generally are useless? I mean people get ugly about their mothers. Its not so surprising they get ugly about their god.

[caz]

It doesn't bother me that there will always be 'believers'. It's not something I can do much about even if I wanted to. However, I can and will resist any efforts to push their beliefs on me, and I will remain cynical about their true motivation. For example it makes me sick to my stomach when people in a position of power (politically or otherwise) claim to have God on their side, and that everything they do must therefore be God's will. I don't know what's more dangerous - when they actually believe it or when they don't. I'd sooner the powers that be assume they are on their own with the abilities - and normal human failings - that nature gave them.

Quite clearly you don't see, Caz.

The scientists campaiging for reason while ridiculing people - now there is a contradiction in terms.

And, I would be the first to say there probably is no god, although I wouldn't discount it outright.

As for Hawking, if he's anything like Dawkins then he's extremist in his pursuit, and to him the ends will justify the means, which makes him a tyrant.

Er, no FM. It's a fact that heaven either exists or it doesn't. If we take the Patrick Moore stance of "we simply don't know", then Hawking may be right or he may be wrong, yet some sensitive souls seem to be saying he is flat out wrong. They can't then whinge about him 'ridiculing' them. It's all a bit silly really.

If it has to boil down to opinion on either side, while right or wrong cannot be established, why is anyone getting heated about Hawking's personal conclusions? What's all this about him being a 'tyrant'? Isn't he simply exercising free speech, and saying in effect that in his view the opposite view sucks?

Love,

Caz
X

[Steven Russell]

It's not a case of there being two equally valid but opposing viewpoints, either of which people can choose to embrace though is it?

While science is based on verifiable data, religion relies on "faith" which is belief without evidence.

If I said here on the boards that the french music hall performer Le Petomane was Jack the Ripper, you would want to see evidence wouldn't you? Or would you just take my word for it?

Let's face it: religion may provide solace to people in times of distress but it is utter bunk and the sooner we realize that, the better.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Sally]

For example it makes me sick to my stomach when people in a position of power (politically or otherwise) claim to have God on their side, and that everything they do must therefore be God's will. I don't know what's more dangerous - when they actually believe it or when they don't. I'd sooner the powers that be assume they are on their own with the abilities - and normal human failings - that nature gave them.

Well indeed, Caz. It is, of course, a time-honoured tradition amongst empire builders and despots and has a very respectable historic pedigree.

What is rather more concerning is that it still appears to work in this day and age.

[Errata]

However, I can and will resist any efforts to push their beliefs on me, and I will remain cynical about their true motivation. For example it makes me sick to my stomach when people in a position of power (politically or otherwise) claim to have God on their side, and that everything they do must therefore be God's will. I don't know what's more dangerous - when they actually believe it or when they don't. I'd sooner the powers that be assume they are on their own with the abilities - and normal human failings - that nature gave them.

Hey i'm a believer and I feel you on this. I'm a Jew and I can say all the major Christian prayers know when to stand/kneel etc cause I just got tired of everyone at friends weddings look at me like about to burst into flames. I even had to get baptized to be my friend's baby's godmother. That was... a very long negotiation session with the pastor.

Someone asked my rabbi something about Israel and said "Like they say, if G-d is for us, who can be against us?" and my Rabbi said "G-d"
"But he's for us"
Rabbi:"Well, he could be. He could easily be against us as well."
"He can't take both sides!"
Rabbi:"I do it all the time, are YOU gonna tell G-d he can't do that?"
"I can't believe he would side against his chosen people!"
Rabbi:"He flooded the earth, made Abraham sacrifice his son, Told us we all had to cut our foreskins off, had us wander through the desert for 40 years AFTER 10 generations of slavery, told us we couldn't eat lobster... What makes you think He has EVER been on our side?"


my Rabbi was kinda awesome.

If it has to boil down to opinion on either side, while right or wrong cannot be established, why is anyone getting heated about Hawking's personal conclusions? What's all this about him being a 'tyrant'?

Love,

Caz
X

Maybe they just don't like his tone?

I'm going to hell for that joke. We don't have one, and I'm going anyway.

[Robert]

I thought Abraham didn't have to sacrifice his son after all.

[Errata]

I thought Abraham didn't have to sacrifice his son after all.

He didn't have to sacrifice Isaac. Though those had to be a few miserable hours. He had to sacrifice Ishmael.

[caz]

my Rabbi was kinda awesome.

He certainly sounds it, Errata!

Maybe they just don't like his tone?

I'm going to hell for that joke. We don't have one, and I'm going anyway.

I'm sure they don't like Hawking's tone - in either sense.

Of course, his comments were rather meek and mild compared with touchy believers who insist he will roast in hell for voicing them.

And I bet Hawking won't be sulking either, or wishing the worst punishment imaginable on his critics.

Love,

Caz
X

[babybird67]

yes indeed

where does wishing him in eternal torment come in the realms of love thy neighbour and forgiving thine enemies?

[Stephen Thomas]

If I said here on the boards that the french music hall performer Le Petomane was Jack the Ripper, you would want to see evidence wouldn't you?

Well, he did like to let rip .

[johns]

The 2 greatest scourges and impediments to humanity throughout the ages has been the 2 Rs

Religion
and
Royalty

Any inconvenience, brutal act or downright lie they could dream up to hurt, kill, hinder and weaken the general population has been committed by the Twin Forks of Pure Evil.

[Errata]

The 2 greatest scourges and impediments to humanity throughout the ages has been the 2 Rs

Religion
and
Royalty

Any inconvenience, brutal act or downright lie they could dream up to hurt, kill, hinder and weaken the general population has been committed by the Twin Forks of Pure Evil.

I bet you've been waiting DAYS to use the phrase "Twin Forks of Pure Evil" in a sentence.

First of all the above statement is not true. And blatantly not true. Secondly, "twin forks of pure evil" means two identical forks of pure evil, and not the two tines of a single fork of pure evil, so it's a bad metaphor.

[johns]

I actually just made it up... bad phrase I suppose but what the heck..

Seriously though.... oppression of women.... refusal to allow democracy until heads started to get cut off.... starters of most (if not all) wars.... you name it.... one or both of the 2 Rs are behind it....

Blatantly not true you say... what's "blatantly" not true? The idea that religion and royalty have started nearly every war in history? Kept Mr and Mrs Joe Bloggs down for as long as they could before graciously allowing us to vote and decide our own rulers? oooh thank ye Mr King sir.... oooh you're so kind Mr Churchperson sir....

Whatever...

[Magpie]

"The two tines of a single fork of pure evil" just doesn't have much of a flow.