Osama Bin Laden DEAD- Killed By U.S. Forces

[Phil H]

Good leadership is bound up with continuity and leaving a legacy.

Surely good leadership is about getting people to do what you want them to do - about inspiration, illumination, decision-making and goal-setting, about guiding (leading the way). It's setting examples, leading by example.

It's Moses, El Cid, Winston Churchill, Henry V.

On Napoleon and Hitler - Napoleon was a multifacted genius by most accounts, with huge amounts of will and ambition, as well as ruthlessness (also qualities of the leader). His legacy is still evident in France's legal system. Wellington thought the sight of Le Tondu's hat on a battlefield worth 40,000 men.

Hitler - well, he did transform the National Socialist Party (German Workers' Party) he joined, into a major political force. He was, by all accounts, a speaker of real force and impact. Vincent Price, the actor, once told a story about being taken to hear Hitler speak and finding that - even though he was not moved by the words, found his hand wanting to lift into the "Seig Heil" along with all those around him, such was Hitler's power to move the masses!

It is easy to lose sight of the fact, from where we stand, that up to the early 1940s the vast majority of Germans idolised Hitler who was perceived as having brought back national pride, efficiency, economic stability (all a reverse of the "failed" Weimar period), military glory etc etc. Not that Hitler contributed to much of that directly, but the Party system was largely his creation, he dominated his generals for much of the war (having been a risk taker in 1940) and manipulated his colleagues (Goring, Ribbentrop, etc) for a long period.

From 1942ish he was in decline, mentally and medically, and more under the control of Borman, but his grip on power and the personal devotion of those around him can hardly be doubted.

I don't honestly see what the time he got up has to do with anything. Egotism can be a major driver for a leader.

...we have a cleaner at work who has written a book about the history of the local area. In his spare time he goes round schools telling children stories about what life was like on the Fens in years gone by.

Intelligence comes in many forms - I have met highly "book-learned" (i.e. academic) people with no common sense at all. I have worked with people who had almost no education, but were superb natural organisers. I have met disorganised people who were very clever and could be highly creative, and organised people who were well-informed but dull and unoriginal thinkers.

As I was once told (on my last day at school) "Life is about the three 'Gs' - Greek, Grace and Gumption (common sense); You can learn Greek and attain Grace, but if you haven't got Gumption, heaven help you!"

Phil

[Limehouse]

Knowledge creates value. Bog cleaners don't add much in the way of knowledge.

I don't agree with this on two counts. Not all knowledge is valuable. Some knowledge is false and some is not worth knowing. Additionally - not all managers are knowledgeable and some think they know far more than they actually do.

Secondly - we have a cleaner at work who has written a book about the history of the local area. In his spare time he goes round schools telling children stories about what life was like on the Fens in years gone by. This is of enormous value.

Finally - cleaners are of great value to an organisation. Any organisation that does not recognise the contribution of all of its staff deserves to fail. ALL workers contribute to the overall wealth and success of an organisation.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Social position doesn’t really affect your abilities as a leader, Napoleon and Hitler both had humble backgrounds but no-one can deny they were great leaders. Churchill, who came from less humble circumstances, was also a great leader. The fact is that if you are not one of the magic 20% you just will not cut it as a leader.

I would argue that both Napoleon and Hitler were average leaders; particuarly Hitler who didn't get out of bed until 2 in the afteroon, and was far too egotistical to do the common sense thing.

Good leadership is bound up with continuity and leaving a legacy.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Toilet cleaners contribute to the wealth or/and efficiency of an organisation as much as managers.

Knowledge creates value. Bog cleaners don't add much in the way of knowledge.

[Bob Hinton]

"Boozy Disco Singer Wannabe Whores It Up For Random East German Official, Gets Caught on the Wrong Side of the Iron Curtain: Beer Goggles Prevent Border Crossing"

Although I am now intensely curious to see what kind of Provenance she could possibly get to corroborate that story. Like an East German pair of underwear to replace her soiled knickers.

You know what? Because I like you, I'm gonna ask Bertie about whatever happened to that car.

Jeezus Errata I can tell you from experience the real world of spooks would love to be as normal as that!

[Errata]

But that is fantastic! Here we have an ordinary person making history. Forget James Bond this is real!

"Boozy Disco Singer Wannabe Whores It Up For Random East German Official, Gets Caught on the Wrong Side of the Iron Curtain: Beer Goggles Prevent Border Crossing"

Although I am now intensely curious to see what kind of Provenance she could possibly get to corroborate that story. Like an East German pair of underwear to replace her soiled knickers.

You know what? Because I like you, I'm gonna ask Bertie about whatever happened to that car.

[Bob Hinton]

But that is fantastic! Here we have an ordinary person making history. Forget James Bond this is real!

[Errata]

With the correct provenance that Skoda would be worth a lot of money.

Not really. It was not a story of high intrigue and political freedom. She got drunk in the hotel bar and went home with some east german official, left the next morning and couldnt get back through the checkpoint (as her ID and everything was in her hotel room). Then she couldn't find the guy she went home with. After three days she bought a Skoda off a guy, hopped in the trunk and had him drive her across to west Berlin.

More like an international "walk of shame"

[Bob Hinton]

Oh really...

Toilet cleaners contribute to the wealth or/and efficiency of an organisation as much as managers.

No they don't. A manager can always role up his sleeves and clean the toilets, but a toilet cleaner cannot always roll down his sleeves and take over the company.

I ran a manufacturing business for a number of years and when things got really busy I left my office for the workshop, but there was absolutely no-one on the machines who could do the reverse. If there was I would have promoted them to a managerial position.

The secret of good management and leadership is recognising the particular skills and abilities of the people you have and use them accordingly.

I recall a time in the forces when I was putting together a team for a certain job. One of the people I chose was a chef who worked in the field kitchens. His talent? For some reason the chap was a chameleon and could pass anywhere without raising an eyebrow, which was just what we needed.

All this nonsense about the 'workers' taking over the means of production is just that - nonsense. I'm not saying there are not some workers who can do just that, what I am saying is that just because you are a worker doesn't mean you would make a good manager.

Here's a story absolutely true.

One of the things that crop up in the antiques world is porcelain of a very high standard coming from Russia and decorated with revolutionary symbols etc. The funny thing is that the porcelain dates from before the revolution.

What happened was there were a number of factories in pre revolutionary Russia producing very high standard porcelain. When the revolution occurred all the management was removed and the factories given to the workers. Unfortunately although they were skilled in their own particular field, they had no idea of how to manage the entire process. They were left with warehouses of blank plates but couldn’t make any more. So the workers decorated the plates they had with stirring messages about workers power etc, but when they finished the factories closed down.

By the way these plates are becoming rarer so keep an eye out!

[Limehouse]

But you have made the common mistake in confusing social position with leadership. Just because daddy owns the company doesn’t make you a better manager than the chap who cleans the toilets.

But the converse is true (and this is what really annoys the Left Wing Loonies –LWL- like Derrick) Just because you clean the toilets doesn’t make you an automatically better manager than the chap who owns the company.

Social position doesn’t really affect your abilities as a leader, Napoleon and Hitler both had humble backgrounds but no-one can deny they were great leaders. Churchill, who came from less humble circumstances, was also a great leader. The fact is that if you are not one of the magic 20% you just will not cut it as a leader.

Yes - but the point I was making was that these managers were appointed BECAUSE of their social position - not their abilities. Consequently - many of them were poor managers.

'Left-wing loonies' as you call us - don't have a problem with people cleaning the toilets for a living even if they are intellectual geniuses. However - toilet cleaning should be valued and its necessity recognised. Toilet cleaners contribute to the wealth or/and efficiency of an organisation as much as managers.

[Bob Hinton]

Reply to Limehouse

Hi Derrick - not long ago I saw a programme on BBC2 that was analysing what went wrong with British industry. It seems that for decades - 80% - yes 80% - of British companies were managed and run not by men who had studied business but by those who got their jobs vis the old-school-tie network. They had no business expertise at all and the success of the company depended on the minions below them.

But you have made the common mistake in confusing social position with leadership. Just because daddy owns the company doesn’t make you a better manager than the chap who cleans the toilets.

But the converse is true (and this is what really annoys the Left Wing Loonies –LWL- like Derrick) Just because you clean the toilets doesn’t make you an automatically better manager than the chap who owns the company.

Social position doesn’t really affect your abilities as a leader, Napoleon and Hitler both had humble backgrounds but no-one can deny they were great leaders. Churchill, who came from less humble circumstances, was also a great leader. The fact is that if you are not one of the magic 20% you just will not cut it as a leader.

[Bob Hinton]

Answer (finally) for Phil H

[B].

But I would make this serious point, I think it's in one of Colin Wilson's books, that I read decades ago, but the anecdote has stuck in my mind.

Anyone know where Wilson got this information?

Phil

Since my house has been gutted and rebuilt most of my library is still in boxes, however I dug out the book you were referring to in my office. It is from Colin Wilson’s ‘A Criminal History of Mankind’ and in the Parragon paperback edition on page 72. It reads.

“Bernard Shaw once asked the explorer H M Stanley (who was a Welshman by the way) how many other men could take over the leadership of the expedition if Stanley himself fell ill; Stanley replied promptly: ‘One in twenty.’ ‘Is that exact or approximate?’ asked Shaw. ‘Exact’. And biological studies have confirmed this as a fact.”

The passage then goes on to refer to the American POW's in the Korean War.

[Bob Hinton]

Greetings.

A guy I went to high school with drove an adorable orange Skoda that his mother was smuggled across to West Berlin in.

As for nearly dying, my second car was a Chevy Corsica and in the maintenance book it said if the engine light came on to pull over immediately and get as far away from the car as possible (!!!!). We called it the Mission: Impossimobile.

With the correct provenance that Skoda would be worth a lot of money.

[Limehouse]

I must have touched a nerve earlier!!

The western economies will bounce back - I see no long-term problem.

It was after all a "socialist chancellor (of over 10 years standing), our "son on the manse", Gordon Brown, who told us all was OK. Gotta believe him, haven't we?

Now - resolution to self - must work out more ways to get under the skins of these "lefties"!!!

(By the way, you really shouldn't assume that I'm that right wing in my real politics... you'ld be wrong!!)

Phil

Bounce back will they? And what about he fall-out of this particular bust? What about the fall-out (literally) in the 1920s?

Sorry Phil - but you sound like a smug and complacement baby-boomer who has supped at the table of plenty and has licked the plate clean so that those who come afterwards have nothing to feast on.

Sorry ifd I'm wrong.

[Phil H]

I must have touched a nerve earlier!!

The western economies will bounce back - I see no long-term problem.

It was after all a "socialist chancellor (of over 10 years standing), our "son on the manse", Gordon Brown, who told us all was OK. Gotta believe him, haven't we?

Now - resolution to self - must work out more ways to get under the skins of these "lefties"!!!

(By the way, you really shouldn't assume that I'm that right wing in my real politics... you'ld be wrong!!)

Phil