Why are "bad" words bad?

[Rubyretro]

I used to believe it was 'Full Use Of Carnal Knowledge'..but actually I don't think that it comes from either..

..I think it is old Saxon word, which is close to German...I'll go check now..

'for Unlawful carnal Knowledge' is the popular root..more likely related to the German 'ficken' and French 'Foutre'...

[Victor]

'for Unlawful carnal Knowledge' is the popular root..more likely related to the German 'ficken' and French 'Foutre'...

Ah well, I resorted to the King of Trivia, Mr Stephen Fry, his website says you are probably correct...

http://www.qi.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7340&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The Austrian village sounds like a fun place to visit.

KR,
Vic.

[cappuccina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLtpbvOpB9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3_UxG0NZAI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=576ydF_BwJg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9595gaoBOM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hcoT6yxFoU&playnext=1&list=PLAD9912F1E0F9A454&index=5

[Rubyretro]

The Austrian village sounds like a fun place to visit.

KR,
Vic.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Vic...even the sign under the place name - 'Bitte..."- sounds like 'bite' (****) in French..

[Limehouse]

I used to believe it was 'Full Use Of Carnal Knowledge'..but actually I don't think that it comes from either..

..I think it is old Saxon word, which is close to German...I'll go check now..

I think you are correct.

[Sally]

Manners

It's about manners. Language is a code, which sort of code it is depends on the social context. Why does it signify? Because you need to understand and operate within the correct code to in turn be understood by others operating in the same context.

I can't speak for anywhere else, because I'm provincial, but I think still in England 'manners' can be extremely circumscribed.

Is it the actual words that are bad? I think they vary in badness according to where (socially) we use them. Everybody employs manners, even if they don't realise it.

[Robert]

Interestingly, the writers of "Porridge" (a sitcom set in a prison) wanted a swear word, because they knew that the idea of convicts saying "Oh goodness gracious" was ridiculous. But they couldn't use a real swear word, so they invented one - the prisoners told each other to "naff off."

"Naff off" never became a forbidden expression in real life, though. Indeed I think Princess Anne used it once!

[Chris]

Interestingly, the writers of "Porridge" (a sitcom set in a prison) wanted a swear word, because they knew that the idea of convicts saying "Oh goodness gracious" was ridiculous. But they couldn't use a real swear word, so they invented one - the prisoners told each other to "naff off."

That's interesting. The Wikipedia article on Polari claims "naff off" had previously been used in place of "f*** off" in Keith Waterhouse's Billy Liar in 1959.

[Steven Russell]

I think it's all about what message the speaker or writer intends to impart. You would never say, "This is a load of faeces" or cry, "Faeces!" in annoyance. Similarly you would not call someone a "daft vagina" unless, possibly, you lived in South Park. So swearwords are valuable in that they help us to express heightened emotions like frustration, aggression, and derision. If they were not considered offensive by some, they would be no use as intensifiers.

So, and this is just a theory, some words need to be considered offensive because there is a liguistic need for offensive words. While I find it rather ridiculous that people bridle over certain words, it is a wonderful thing to be able to endow one's speech with great power by the strategic use of four well chosen letters or one syllable. Perhaps this is why swearwords are more shocking (or amusing) when uttered by those who rarely use them.

My point is that whatever the culture (Ruby is right about the British upper class by the way - they are prolific and talented swearers) certain words or phrases need to be taboo to invest them with shock value and thus enrich the language. Their literal meaning is not really important in this respect. For example, I understand that the most offensive thing you can say to someone in Spanish involves calling his mother's character into question. Same thing in Urdu - it's all about your female relatives. But in English, when Bugs Bunny says, "Your sister wears army shoes" it's not as strong as if he had said, "You fat, baldy c*nt".

It may also be that our strongest swearwords in English are Anglo-Saxon rather than Norman in origin so that they came to be considered vulgar by the middle classes following the Norman Conquest as discussed by others above. Whatever the origin of the words themselves and why they were singled out as offensive, I would argue that swearwords exist because they fulfill a need.

The flipside to this is political correctness where words are deliberately given taboo status so people can avoid giving offence by eschewing them. This can occur very quickly. Consider the shift, in living memory, from negro to coloured to black to African American. I doubt if any of these were considered offensive when first coined. The "Mother Station of the Negroes", the NAACP, Black Power, The first African American President.

Just my thoughts anyway and quite possibly a load of ****.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Robert]

Hi Chris

Hmm...maybe Mr Waterhouse got there first then.

[corey123]

Hello Steven,

I now pledge to never say **** again, though, I might, on occasion slip faeces out in the air.

Ally,

Interesting question, what does make bad words bad, and who has the right to dictate so? For the record I am not just refering to the forums, I know Stephen has the right here, but what about elsewhere?

Good question, makes you think.

However, I would say that purposeful insults would, at least in my opinion, count as being 'bad'.

Yours truly

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

"Naff off" was indeed used by HRH Princess Anne at one time or another during the mid-seventies when "Porridge" was popular, and a few tabloids picked up on it and made the comparison.

As regards use of swear words, I was always taught that "manners maketh man", at least in public. However some would think of that today with varying degrees of floccinaucinihilipilification.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Western culture, as a whole is riddled with class differentiation.

As well it should be. If one person makes an effort to better themselves and thereby the world around them, and another chooses to sit on their butt and mooch and be a useless layabout, then it is only natural that the world at large will value the former more than the latter and treat them accordingly. It's all about choice.

And Lynn's post at the beginning of the thread was brilliant. When he's not talking about the Ripper the man really knows what he's talking about.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Robert]

Dredging my memory, I seem to recall that Charles Lamb once offended a fishwife by calling her a she-parallelogram.

When I hear or read someone continually swearing, I tend to get the feeling that I'm being nagged. It isn't nice. It's like spending time with Ena Sharples or Jimmy Porter.

[Ally]

Actually people do do the equivalent of Faeces! and such when they think they are being polite. I know someone who will say with great irritation Oh Fudge! Now, really why do they do that? The meaning they are using is exactly the same as Fukk, when they say it, everyone mentally converts it to fukk, and the connotation, a curse is exactly the same, yet for some arbitrary reason, saying "FUDGE!" is "better" than saying Fukk, though there is absolutely no difference in tone, or intent.