Political Correctness Going Too Far?

[KatBradshaw]

[QUOTE
Most Europeans are atheists?[/B]
Most Europeans (apart from the Italian and the Spaniards) are agnostics or atheists. In fact, Europe is extremely secular and not preoccupied by religion or religious debate. In fact, I hardly know any people who believe in God among my colleagues and acquaintancies. 2 weeks ago I was invited at a conference about social history of opera at the (prestigious and very rich) Catholic Academy in Schwerte (in West Germany), and among the participants only 2 were Christians, one Catholic and one Protestant. There is a strong tradition of German Catholicism, mostly generating from the Bonn area, but they're mainly involved in politics, in the CDU and CSU party, NOT in academics. France is even more secular.[/QUOTE]

If this is true then why are there so many shrines on the roads in places like France and Belgium??

[mariab]

Kate Bradshaw wrote:
I would have thought that there would be more who would count themselves as agnostic before athiest.
Absolutely. It makes much more sense.
I'm not sure why since a little kid I had this completely embedded feeling in the core of my being that there is no God, that it made absolutely no sense that there might be one. My parents definitely did not indocrinate me or anything. In fact, there were even problems with other parents, who complained that “Maria not only tells to our kiddies that there is not Santa Claus, she goes as far as to to be running around saying that there is no God.“, so my parents told me to stuff it.
I firmly believe that religion generated as a way to reconcile humans with their own mortality.
I hope noone thinks that being an agnostic or atheist means that one chooses to live by a less rigid moral code. It's quite the opposite, really. Being agnostic or atheist requires even more moral and civic responsibility.

[KatBradshaw]

My Dad is the most moral person I know and he is an athiest.

[Robert]

I had to Google Kwanzaa. I thought it might have something to do with two kwanzaa lager and a packet of crisps.

[mariab]

Kate Bradshaw wrote:
If this is true then why are there so many shrines on the roads in places like France and Belgium??
This refers to car crashes, and people having died there. It's a long tradition. The French also celebrate the day of the dead on November 1st, bringing lillies of the valley (which are sold everywhere on the street on Nov. 1st) to cemeteries. Even agnostics do that in France. It's a long tradition. I've done it.

[KatBradshaw]

No they don't all refer to car crashes!

[mariab]

I hope I'm a moral person, I'm definitely not very responsible or very adult yet. What's fascinating are my friends from East Berlin/East Germany, who grew up atheist and communists, really indoctrinated! All of them have shed the unnecessary stuff, but I've often noticed that they have a higher moral code and a better general education than the West Germans from our generation. I've often wondered if the DDR, at least until the 1980s, was (very briefly) a safe haven against the turmoil of post World War II Europe. It seems like, for the briefest of periods, communist almost worked in East Germany, probably due to the fact that it's a tiny land, with the potential for a strong economy, and inhabited by conscientious and civic folk. If I compare the East Germans in my generation with the other East Europeans, it's worlds apart. But possibly because in a long tradition of catastrophic economy, as exemplified in East Europe, societies tend to get slightly sociopathic.

[mariab]

Kate Bradshaw wrote:
No they don't all refer to car crashes!
There's a very, very long tradition of churches in incredibly rich architectural variety all around continental Europe. In fact, unlike America/Australia, in Europe more frequently churches are restaured than built from scratch.
But little shrines by the side of a rural road invariably refer to a car accident, survived or not.

[Abby Normal]

Kate Bradshaw wrote:
No they don't all refer to car crashes!
There's a very, very long tradition of churches in incredibly rich architectural variety all around continental Europe. In fact, unlike America/Australia, in Europe more frequently churches are restaured than built from scratch.
But little shrines by the side of a rural road invariably refer to a car accident, survived or not.

Here in the US-I don't think you can go more than 2 blocks without seeing a roadside shrine/memorial (made by friends and family) to somebody who has died in a car accident.

[KatBradshaw]

Kate Bradshaw wrote:
No they don't all refer to car crashes!
There's a very, very long tradition of churches in incredibly rich architectural variety all around continental Europe. In fact, unlike America/Australia, in Europe more frequently churches are restaured than built from scratch.
But little shrines by the side of a rural road invariably refer to a car accident, survived or not.

I am sory Maria but that is just not true. Having lived in both Germany and Belgium I can assure you that many of these shrines are there as religious offerings to saints, especially The Virgin Mary. The same is true of the Republic of Ireland and of the Catholic areas of Northern Ireland. We have roadside memorials here in England too, I pass one on the way to work every day, but they are very diffferent to the fixed religious memorials you see in these parts of northern europe.

[mariab]

Hi Kate,
it's very possible that I'm wrong. But that's what locals have told me in some cases when travelling by such a shrine, plus these shrines are invariably located over a cliff or after a blind turn.
Most probably it was a stupid idea to start talking about atheism in this thread. I really hope not to have offended anybody, and I should have probably kept mum.

[KatBradshaw]

Hi Kate,
it's very possible that I'm wrong. But that's what locals have told me in some cases when travelling by such a shrine, plus these shrines are invariably located over a cliff or after a blind turn.
Most probably it was a stupid idea to start talking about atheism in this thread. I really hope not to have offended anybody, and I should have probably kept mum.

When I lived in Belgium there was one just up the road from us which was neither at a cliff nor a blind turn, it was placed there by locals to mark their faith.
In England the memorials by the side of the road are not usually fixed statues. The ones I refer to are definatley religious and are there for the worship of saints.
Such as this one.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12445197@N05/3835693817/

[mariab]

Oh, OK. The one you've posted the picture of is HUGE, Kate. I have to admit I've never seen any shrine as big as this on the roads, as the ones I was referring to were tiny, as big as a mailbox. I've only seen shrines like the one you've posted in private residencies in Italy, as in the residents keeping their own private tiny church.

[KatBradshaw]

Yeah the small ones are usually, as you say and as we have here in the UK, for deaths on roads. But the one I posted is not unusual in Belgium or Western Germany, Northern France or Eire.

[Magpie]

Most Europeans are atheists?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I think it might be more accurate to say that most Europeans are secularists, whether they be religious or atheist.