Burka

[Natalie Severn]

Anyone who wants to know what society looks like when there is no rule of law, need only look at Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. Such societies are normally classified as totalitarian governments, but an apter classification would be "anarchic societies."

Actually that is not right.Stalin"s Russia was nowhere near as lawless as Russia is today. Stalin himself may have been responsible for the deaths of anyone who opposed him, which added up to thousands, but Russia itself was not lawless under Stalin

.

It might surprise you to learn that I myself would be prepared to contribute to a fund which could be used to send the troublemakers to Eton or Harrow.

AndRobert , would you include making a donation to the Bullingdon Club, where the ones who get to Oxford graduate to after their lessons in exemplarary citizenship ends at Eton and Harrow ?
Wouldnt they all have such fun together-rich and poor alike , wrecking every bit of furniture in the local pub, smashing windows and furniture getting roaring drunk!
The old Etonions and Old Harrovarians could really show "em how to select the weakest targets ! Or would the better show if these old school boys showed "em how to take a line of cocaine in style?

[Natalie Severn]

Anyone who wants to know what society looks like when there is no rule of law, need only look at Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. Such societies are normally classified as totalitarian governments, but an apter classification would be "anarchic societies."

Actually that is not right.Stalin"s Russia was nowhere near as lawless as Russia is today. Stalin himself may have been responsible for the deaths of anyone who opposed him, which added up to thousands, but Russia itself was not lawless under Stalin

.

It might surprise you to learn that I myself would be prepared to contribute to a fund which could be used to send the troublemakers to Eton or Harrow.

And Robert , would you include making a donation to the Bullingdon Club too, where the ones who get to Oxford graduate to after their lessons in " exemplarary citizenship " ends at Eton and Harrow ?
Wouldnt they all have such fun together-rich and poor alike , wrecking every bit of furniture in the local pub, smashing windows and furniture getting roaring drunk!
The old Etonions and Old Harrovarians could really show "em how to select the weakest targets ! Or would the better show be if these old school boys were to show "em how to take a line of cocaine in style?

[Robert]

Millions, Nats. Stalin killed millions. Yeah, it wasn't a lawless society - it's just that there was a paranoid idiot at the top who would have you shot if he didn't like the tone of your voice, or something you'd said - and your family would join you in the punishment. Naturally this attitude spread further down.

I don't understand your last paragraph, sorry.

[Natalie Severn]

Millions, Nats. Stalin killed millions.

Ok fine---no love lost over Stalin.

Now Robert---are you being deliberately disingenuous or what ?
Why the Bullingdon Club is the most famous club of all for all the ex Etonion, Oxford Hurrah Henrys who like to roam around Oxford terrorizing -especially pub owners! Its absolutely notorious -really it is-for loutish thugs who love getting far too drunk and like to smash places up---including their old Oxford college rooms.Google Wiki but better still look up some past press stories of those who have claimed compensation! Save your pennies Robert!

[tji]

Hi all

Ok let's say you are walking home and three men jump out of a car and attack you and your partner, the Police catch them and arrest them for attempted murder, GBH ABH, etc. They are let out on bail and have to go to court on a specific day to answer the charges.

You have two choices, see the court action through and let the law deal with them or have a man who you know kindly offer to have a friend knee cap them free of charge - (cos he is old school and doesn't think men should attack women).

Which choice do you pick??

I went with choice A, took them to Crown Court, where they each got a 6 month suspended sentence, had to wear an ankle bracelet for 3 month, had a curfew for 3 month, (which they got out of by getting food delivery jobs on a night) and 30 hours anger management class.

Within 2 month of this they where back in court for assault again.... 2 different cases.

Broken kneecaps would have stopped this. Did I make the right choice, legally yes, would I make that choice if it happened again - no, I think I would go for choice B next time round.


tj

[cappuccina]

Ally, once again you are both arrogant and incorrect (...it'd actually be almost humorous if the subject matter weren't so serious...); while people from all walks of life commit murder and other violent crimes, the vast majority of violent crimes are associated with poverty...

You* need* to* actually* read* the * statistics* on * these* sociological* issues* before* you* speak * .(Well, we aren't actually speaking here, we are typing, but the advice stands...)

[Ally]

I have read the statistics and I know the score. The fact is simple. People have a choice to be a statistic or not. Yes, it's hard to rise above one's circumstances but everyone in life is faced with the choice and if people choose the easy route over the hard, then tough. I have no sympathy for them. No one is forced to become a cold-blooded murderer. It's a choice. And as with all choices, you pay the consequences for your actions.

And you and the rest who argue "oh poor things they can't help it", you still haven't answered the simple question. With thousands of non-murdering people in need out there who could better benefit from limited resources, why precisely should people choose to waste resources on murderers? Why precisely should we waste time effort and energy to improve murderers lot in life, when there are billions of other non-murderers who could better benefit from those resources?

You will never end murder. So what do you do with murderers?

[cappuccina]

I am not excusing anyone, Ally; you must be confusing me for someone elase, or elase you just tantrum with everyone without actually reading what they are saying. I am simply stating a fact, that violent crime is connected with poverty.

I have NEVER said "poor things cannot help it"....If you think I have, prove it and quote where I said it; you won't find it, I can assure you.

As I already said, you have to put more resources into education, etc. early in life to help PREVENT the situations which classically lead people to become violent offenders. I understand that murder will never stop; however, I think that it can be lessened...

As far as those who are violent offenders...LWOP in a spartan prison; no tvs or comforts, just food, water and a cot. Basically, an "old skool" zoo for humans...

[Ally]

Yes fine. We need to put more into education and early intervention. Granted.

Now what do you do with the people who choose to commit murder regardless of any intervention or education or their personal circumstances in life, good or bad.

That is the question on the table. The death penalty. What do you do with people who have already gone ahead and committed murder, regardless of their past or their personal circumstances. You have someone who has committed cold blooded first degree homicide against another human being.

What do you do with them?

[Bob Hinton]

Very interesting but,

[QUOTE=cappuccina;142549 the vast majority of violent crimes are associated with poverty...

[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry but this is totally wrong. The overwhelming number of violent crimes are committed by violent criminals who are very rarely if ever poverty stricken. Perhaps you hadn't hear of one of our drug dealers who actually made the rich list.

The fact is these people commit violence because there is no deterrent, they know that if they get caught they will not be punished in any way that will inconvenience them.

[Robert]

Nats, I can't imagine how you got the idea that I hold any kind of brief for old Etonians, Harrovians, etc. On the contrary, I want them excluded from power, permanently. If people want to vote for them, so be it, but I won't.

Oxford and Cambridge have also been found wanting.

[cappuccina]

Ummm, Bob H. you are absolutely NOT correct on this; sorry, this is basic Sociology 101...

This is FACT, my friend, not an emotionally-laden guess...

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:4_OSltp24lwJ:www.hhh.umn.edu/people/jbatwood/pdf/link_poverty_conflict.pdf+connection+between+povertu+and+violent+crime&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESj5-qkaAgxErsXIKS0WRkw3OzYqKl4Rtg6BRYF1MVKXZF1HYkm2ZbMYFIcw4vYbGi0YdBG3smDKj0bPsyajG6z16GvpfcdPpXcU3f1lAfNpqeCzplJqLkudOM1i8Qem8WMB144l&sig=AHIEtbRiHDBnxHesEOfnV_jpi5kA8m4m-g

http://www.amazon.com/Poverty-Ethnicity-Violent-Crime-Society/dp/0813320143

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:ZngpjqDc418J:citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.81.2927%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf+connection+between+poverty+and+violent+crime&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgQtEP4KiahRZIbLJTvHJ5fxqMWG6L_hY0m_sADWBKA0IB3TwZru_RUliE98HrYL0MzMslFEF0yi0tBPVAM30W68-KVANyztUHYyY06XEIwRf6c1Ya6LGikpyGmsI6fIrJ-pbNP&sig=AHIEtbT2YKrGUsVe2QWaOJ7KxP-4TSHwPg

(Suggests that social cohesion mitigates violent crime in poorer neighborhoods; other studes suggest the same thing, that social cohesion, and pooer neighborhoods that band together to share researouces/look out for each other have lower crime rates...)

http://books.google.com/books?id=t2vT0nzOAK0C&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=poverty+and+violent+crime&source=bl&ots=JNpAN1yoFJ&sig=zRBjxT-Hcvib8HbtbryaI0xDyjU&hl=en&ei=nF9YTJeeK4OB8gatodDFCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCAQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/09/us/09crime.html

Also note that during the Great Depression in the United States, the murder rate went up considerably, as the murder and violent crime rate is up now in Detroit during the "Second Great Depression" that is going in right now...

Ally, I already answered your question, above...

[Natalie Severn]

Fair enough Robert.I just thought you rated their alumni when you said that about paying for a few proletarian troublemakers to be educated there.I thought to myself---well they might have more in common some of them than Robert realises!

[Robert]

Sup up your beer and collect your fags, Nats. There's a row going on down in Slough.

[cappuccina]

(An aside here: As an outsider looking in, maybe it is time for the UK to get rid of its caste system...why not dump the House of Lords for a House of Representatives-type model...

While I am not saying that the US Congress is perfect, something really bothers me about having someone sit in a Parliament or a Congress because of their "birthright" or societal or religious standing....I mean they could be a complete mofo, but be born into a noble family; what good is that?? )