Burka

[Stephen Thomas]

Cut out the diseased portions for the overall good of the healthy. It's basic logic. Why precisely waste time, resources and energy attempting to rehabilitate someone like that? There are billions of people on the planet who don't piss away their lives and their chances. Why waste the effort on those who do?

I usually agree wholeheartedly with your views, Ally, but the above sounds like something from Hitler.

[cappuccina]

Robert, study after study, and raw statistics show that the "spectre" of the DP has never deterred violent criminals from being violent, and committing murder, etc. This is a fact, whether you like it or not.

Ally...you are, in fact, completely missing the point which is that we need to do something with children very early on to prevent such violence, and/or to mitigate mental illness where that is the issue...As a teacher, I am surprised that you've utterly missed this...

I don't think that older teen and adult violent offenders can be rehabilitated either - I actually agree with youon that part, so, I am for "truth in sentencing", where LWOP menas LWOP, no early release for any reason, no pardons unless a grievous error has been made (like the wrong DNA). For us as a soeity to set an example of non violence by killing people, is equivalent to (and I have actually seen this), the parents who beat the crap out of their kids while saying "don't hit your brother"...it completely sends the wrong message, and again, as an educator, you should be familiar with this...

Children learn by example, and while there is a genetic element at play - we cannot deny that, I have seen kids with violent "genetic" propensities who can turn around if raised in the right environment...

I am a parent, and I know that children learn all the time by example, even when you think they do not, or don't see it...

For example:

We are having a very minor election tomorrow, and my daughter who is 14 reminded me that "we have to go vote" tomorrow....she always goes with me to vote, and my son did too, and we always talk about the elections the night before no matter how small/insiginficant they seem...Even though she thinks she is "the collest thing on the planet" right now as all kids her age do, she still wants to go with me to vote...

So, by doing what seems to me to be a very small thing which is to talk to my kids about government and what is going on at each level, and taking them to vote, I've raised kids who as adults will vote and participate in society.

The most important thing our society can do is to model positive behavior for children starting at birth, and to ensure that children have decent educations and parents who love them. Sadly, that is often not the case, especially in horribly economically depressed areas like where I live right now...So, what I try to do is to help the kids in my daughter's school who need it, and to show them that there are adults who care about them, etc.

[Ally]

I usually agree wholeheartedly with your views, Ally, but the above sounds like something from Hitler.

Precisely how? Hitler killed millions of people not for anything they did, but for their race or physical circumstances beyond their control.

Succoring people who murder is a waste of resources. They have proven themselves to be aberrant and to function against the interests of people so why precisely should people use vital resources in nourishing those who would annihilate them?

Ally...you are, in fact, completely missing the point which is that we need to do something with children very early on to prevent such violence, and/or to mitigate mental illness where that is the issue..

NO I am not missing the point. The point is, should murderers be put to death. The answer is yes. I fyou wanted to make sure that all children early on had every advantage then the only conclusion is, you believe that all people should be sterilized at birth, and that only people who pass rigorous screening in financial, mental and emotional health as well as genetic testing should be allowed to have children, because that is the ONLY way you will ever manage to mitigate the circumstances that lead people to becoming murderers. We cannot control every facet of environment to ensure well brought up humans. That is out of our hands. We can only deal with the results.

[Robert]

Cappuccina, as I said before, the death penalty will deter some people. As for the rest, I might almost say that they are too stupid to be allowed to live.

The non-violent approach doesn't work. Ever noticed how many totally non-violent people there are in the world? Not many! That's because the non-violent people were killed off years ago, along with their genes, by all the violent people.

Over here, the teachers campaigned to have corporal punishment abolished. Now they're asking for police protection. Goodness gracious, what a surprise!

As for the studies and statistics, if they're Liberal Establishment in origin, then forget it.

[cappuccina]

No Robert, the only people who are "deterred" are people who already would not commit violent acts anyway, thus the entire "deterrence" argument is spurious. The DP has NEVER deterred sociopaths and others who continue to comit these crimes all over the place, even in countries with much more barbaric penalties than anything we have.

Ally....you still miss the point....you don't get it....

Your last paragraph is not only not what I said, it, in fact, also makes no sense...which means....again, you don't get it...

What I said rather plainly is that our resources need to be beefed up on the education, learning, parenting, side, etc.,....in other words the "early intervention & education side" as opposed to the "aftermath" (prison system)side only, which is essentially what this country has been doing for decades.

An analogy that will be easy for you to understand is the health plan that pays for all kids of expensive surgeries, but refuses to pay for wellness or preventative programs & education, and then wonders why the rate of expensive surgeries is through the roof...

Same thing with our entire criminal justice system...

If you "got it" you would also know that many, many recidivist violent offenders are undereducated and functionally illiterate, for example; Ted Bundy was the exception, not the rule.

Robert, the statistics are what they are: the USDOJ in the United States, for example, keeps track of how many people are arrested in each state and categorizes the crimes by type...You just don't like the truth and I cannot help that...

Oh - Ally; you're not right about Hitler either, he also blamed the Jews for things like Germany's economic failure and other events that went far beyond physical charateristics, etc. In fact, Hitler blamed the Jews for all of the misfortunes Germany was experiencing at the time...

(It's OK hon, I'll give you a pass until September; you're not paid to think during the summer...LOL)

[Robert]

Cappuccina, let's suppose that you're a man and living in a very rough neighbourhood. You think you might stand less chance of being attacked if you take up bodybuilding. But suddenly along comes an expert and says, "Waste of time! You won't deter anyone from attacking you. After all your exercises and bodybuilding, you'll still have exactly the same chance of being attacked as a weedy fellow or a little old lady. No one was ever deterred by muscles. The only people likely to be deterred, are those who would never attack anyone in the first place."

What would be your reply to said expert?

[cappuccina]

The expert would be correct in many instances, actually...

If you look at women who are sexually assaullted, for example, you will find that they are all ages and very different in phsycial appearance. There are not, in fact, more "model types" who are assaulted by strangers than other types of women.

Same with armed robbery, or else you wouldn't have, e.g., famous athletes in the US who have had armed robberies occur in their well-alarmed and guarded homes, with not only themselves, but extra "muscle" like bodyguards present...

If someone is hellbent on committing a crime, they will find a way to do it; yes we can take precautions, and some of them may have some effect, but if you look at crimes overall, the trends are not what you would think...as in the case of rape, for example...

[Robert]

That's two jobs for you, Cappuccina. First you've got to stroll down to all the worst areas and tell all the crooks that the gang wars and so forth that they engage in among themselves are quite irrational, because they're not derterring one other. And when you've done that, you have to pop over to all the athletes and tell them to fire their bodyguards because they're a waste of money.

On a female issue (which I only enter upon gingerly) I'd say that rape is more about power than lust.

On the Jews, from Hitler's point of view it did come down to personal characteristics, because in his view everything they did was genetically explicable.

[cappuccina]

Actually, Robert, you have no idea; I have actually done that...I live quite close to one of the worst areas of Detroit, where I word with disadvantaged kids and in the soup kitchens, and I taught first young adult offenders in the housing projects in Chicago (back in the day), and I have said exactly those things to actual gang members, and lived to tell the tale....now, the head of the program I was working for in Chicago told me that the young adults in my classes (actually there were two of us who had this honor) had one of the highest rates of finishing high school and going onto college; I received letters from several of my students thanking me, and showing me that they had, infact, completed high school, and college in several cases.

I taught members of Chicago's gangs, violent criminals, car thieves, drug dealers you name it...

One of the most emotional experiences I had were a group of really hardened young men breaking down one day in my class (I was teaching a "Life Skills" class), actually crying, and saying to me things like: "Where were you when I was in second grade, and my father left and my mother didn't want to take care of me"...

I also told a gang member in Chicago who was intimitdating people in front of a gsmall family grocery store to **** off and get out...

Now, I'm real threatening; I have arthritis, and I wear my hair in a bun, and wear orthopedic shoes...But, the dude listened to me...A lot of it is how you carry yourself and what you say...

The simplistic solutions you and Ally are coming up with are never the answer, of course...

...you both also have a lot of reading to do about Hitler: Google "Hitler blamed Jews for economy" and start reading....there will be a quiz...LOL...

[Robert]

Well, good luck to you in what you do, but I can't help feeling you're putting your life in danger to no purpose. Still, at least you're not hiding in some posh suburb like a lot of the people who think like you.

[Ally]

Ally....you still miss the point....you don't get it....

Your last paragraph is not only not what I said, it, in fact, also makes no sense...which means....again, you don't get it...

No I don't. You just choose to blather endlessly thinking you are making a rational argument and refusing to stop, pause and listen to the lack of sense you are spouting.

What I said rather plainly is that our resources need to be beefed up on the education, learning, parenting, side, etc.,....in other words the "early intervention & education side" as opposed to the "aftermath" (prison system)side only, which is essentially what this country has been doing for decades.

And there is no amount of expense on education, learning or parenting that will stop violence or murder. People from the most wealthy and educated families commit all sorts of crimes, the only difference is, they have the resources and the lawyers to get away with it. Education does not preclude criminal activity just a better chance of escaping punishment for it. Parental excellence does not mitigate people from becoming murderers, social environment does not prevent people from being murderers. Two kids raised in teh same house with the same socio-economic levels and parents, can grow up to be radically different in their approach to life and criminality. One could become a dedicated life saver and the other a life taker. So spending money on education and community improvement, while nice, is not going to do anything to address the problems of what to do with people who commit murder. Because no matter what, people are still going to commit murder, and what happens then?

If you "got it" you would also know that many, many recidivist violent offenders are undereducated and functionally illiterate, for example; Ted Bundy was the exception, not the rule.

Bull crap. We are not talking exclusively about serial killers. We are talking about murderers. And there are plenty of successful rich, well educated people who commit murders. Doctors who don't want to pay alimony, doctor's society wives who dont' want to lose their cushy lifestyle. Plenty of successful, rich, and highly educated people commit murder. It's not limited to the undereducated and the poor. The reason why the undereducated and poor tend to re-offend is their victims tend not to be closely related to them, so they can get away with it a few more times. But as has been proven if someone gets away with murder once, they are more likely to kill again. Be it a doctor, or a spouse killer or the thug on the street.

Oh - Ally; you're not right about Hitler either, he also blamed the Jews for things like Germany's economic failure and other events that went far beyond physical charateristics, etc. In fact, Hitler blamed the Jews for all of the misfortunes Germany was experiencing at the time...

What the hell does that have to do with anything I said? I never said Hitler didn't blame the Jews for economic failure. I said he killed them for what they were not for what they did. The Jews didn't actually cause the economic failure. He wanted a scapegoat and used it. But in fact the Jews DIDN'T cause the economic collapse therefore your argument is lacking in logic. HE killed them because they were Jews. He attempted to turn the rest of Germany against them via propaganda. I am talking about putting to death people for what they ACTUALLY do, not some propaganda against a group of people for the way the race they were born into.

(It's OK hon, I'll give you a pass until September; you're not paid to think during the summer...LOL)

[/QUOTE]

That's alright sweetie, I'll give you a total pass for always, thank god you aren't paid to think ever, you aren't all that good at it. LOL.

[Limehouse]

Cappuccina, as I said before, the death penalty will deter some people. As for the rest, I might almost say that they are too stupid to be allowed to live.

The non-violent approach doesn't work. Ever noticed how many totally non-violent people there are in the world? Not many! That's because the non-violent people were killed off years ago, along with their genes, by all the violent people.

Over here, the teachers campaigned to have corporal punishment abolished. Now they're asking for police protection. Goodness gracious, what a surprise!

As for the studies and statistics, if they're Liberal Establishment in origin, then forget it.

Robert - corporal punishment is completely ineffective and I'll give you several reasons why:

A child who is regularly beaten comes to associate the beating with punishment. They eventually accept the punishment as the final result of their behaviour and believe that once they are punished - the incident is over until the next time. The beating hurts - but they accpet that. It doesn't change their behaviour. As an example - a boy I will call MW - was beaten almost every week at school for the same crime - smoking. The beating simply punished him. It did not change his behaviour.

The second reason it is ineffective is that children who are beaten at school but not at home for the same crime recognise an inconsistency in punishment systems and do not accept the justification of the beating at school and are more likely to become more troublesome as a result.

I would never beat a young person in my care. It i's my duty to reason with them - to try and find a way round the problem - to nurture them - to try to set a positive example. To beat a child or young person for breaking rules at school or college is to teach them that people more powerful than them can use physical force to exercise that power instead of achieving order through respect and accpetance of the system.

We havbe to ry to create conditions in which people can positively grow and achieve - emerging as responsible and well-bhaved adults. We have to try harder with young people - as capppucina says - right at the start of their lives.

[Natalie Severn]

Well, good luck to you in what you do, but I can't help feeling you're putting your life in danger to no purpose. Still, at least you're not hiding in some posh suburb like a lot of the people who think like you.

Robert,
Just for the record;Except when I was newly qualified as a teacher I have always taught pupils from economically deprived backgrounds.The area I taught in longest was Southall , where the children were among the 1% most economically deprived in the United Kingdom---- I often observed that their one pair of shoes were so flimsy that they let in the rainwater and in Winter their clothing failed to keep them warm----this was in 2009 .I worked in Southall as a teacher for a total of seventeen years and in Northolt, in a similarly deprived area, for eight years.
So although we may live---in a small flat---in what you call a "posh area" now, I certainly have"nt "hidden away" in it!
I don"t accept Ally"s argument regarding crime.Statistics show time and again,the world over,that it is in poverty stricken areas that most crime flourishes.
However, its perfectly true to say people from all socio-economic groups are known to commit crime----including murder.In my opinion,crime is often the reflection of the sub culture you happen to be born into and accept as the norm .But it may equally be due to several other factors - a dysfuntional mother-infant relationship or child/family relationship or failure in the pupil/teacher/ school set up. It may have most to do with an individuals perceptions of the very culture or dysfunction of the society they see operating ,from the top down.If those who make the laws are shown to be cheats liars and thieves, those who may feel otherwise alienated from that society start to act likewise and believe they have nothing to lose and everything to gain,so they think,by breaking the law, and will do so if they think they are not going to get caught and will moreover, become rich quick in the process.Not that different from those who "played the tables" at the stock exchange and triggered the recent global economic recession----according to Soros in a radio broadcast just before the collapse.

[Bob Hinton]

No Robert, the only people who are "deterred" are people who already would not commit violent acts anyway, thus the entire "deterrence" argument is spurious.
)

I'm sorry that's total nonsense. Of course people are deterred by the threat of violence. Are you saying to me that Mafia gang bosses are as regularly robbed and mugged by the lowlife as ordinary people? Are you saying that criminals in the UK regularly go out of their way to rob known IRA terrorists because they are sure all they will get is a good talking to?

What on earth do you think the nuclear deterrent is all about? You do violence to me and I'll do a bigger violence to you.

The entire world is run on threats of violence by more powerful people to the less powerful. If you commit an offence of robbery and a policeman comes up to you to arrest you, he doesn’t turn round and walk away if you say “Oh I’m sorry I don’t want to be arrested”, he will use force and violence to subdue and arrest you.

These people who bang on about corporal punishment saying that it shouldn’t be used as it will only teach people that violence will solve problems, are talking rubbish. The only people who obey the law and fear it are law abiding citizens, nasty thuggish criminals don’t fear the law and they have to be subdued with violence.

Just thank your lucky stars that there are people out there who are willing to do violence on your behalf, because one day they will be so fed up with your carping criticism they will just let you get on with it, and when that day comes you will find that trying to talk to someone who is trying to split open your skull with an axe doesn’t really work.

I remember attending a seminar once where the main message was “We can talk through our differences”. After listening to the total rubbish the man was talking for about 30 minutes I got up to leave. The speaker asked me why I was leaving and I replied that he was talking rubbish. He then got very hot and bothered about this and started ranting and railing about me being a thug and not willing to try any other method. I said I would only be too happy to give his method a chance and challenged him to give the audience a chance to see his method in action. We agreed to hold a mini seminar after the main one. I went home and prepared myself.

Later that night I appeared on the stage with him, sitting across from each other at a table. The scenario was we were two protagonists and he was going to show how to resolve a situation without using violence.

The scene was set and he started with “Tell me what do you think are the main differences between us?” I said nothing merely stood up and pulling a pistol from my waistband fired two .38 blanks in his direction. He wet himself literally. Standing over him as he was curled up in a ball crying and sobbing in a pool of his own urine, I asked him how well he thought talking things over was going for him.

I think he left the lecture circuit soon after.

[Robert]

Hi Nats and Limehouse

Well, I don't want to get into the problem of free will, or we'll be here for all eternity, long after a British man has won Wimbledon.

You both seem to have a touching faith in human decency and people's ability to reason. I'm afraid that faith is misplaced.

You seem to think that people sit down and go through all their beliefs, principles and attitudes with a fine-toothed comb, discarding the irrational and retaining the rational. Hardly anyone does this. In reality, most people's lives and beliefs are dominated by factors that are often in the background - family loyalties, national allegiances, peer pressure, economic advantage...the list is as long as your arm. And yes, fear. If you take a tin of beans without paying, there'll be a bleep as you go out the door and a security guard will appear.

Anyone who wants to know what society looks like when there is no rule of law, need only look at Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia. Such societies are normally classified as totalitarian governments, but an apter classification would be "anarchic societies."

In Nazi Germany there was a small group called The Order of the White Rose or something like that. They used to stand on street corners and hand out pacifist literature. I think their average survival rate was about 20 minutes.

Any child whose behaviour cannot be modified by normal methods should be removed to a special school, a home for idiots or whatever you want to call it. Probably you'd call it a home for the behaviourally challenged. At least that would give the kids who do want to learn a respite from the activities of the unruly elements, and access to a teacher whose time is no longer taken up sorting out troublemakers.

It might surprise you to learn that I myself would be prepared to contribute to a fund which could be used to send the troublemakers to Eton or Harrow.
There would be a huge educational gain - not to the troublemakers, but to the parents of the other children. The politicians, lawyers, pop stars, journalists and priests who send their children to these exclusive establishments would have to sit and watch while their children's education was disrupted. They would thus gain an insight into the real world and the problems the rest of us have to grapple with. After all, we're all "in it together" - or so I was told.

BTW Nats, I wasn't saying that you lived in a suburb. I've no idea where you live.