Burka

[Robert]

Just to balance things, there's a smashing Moslem family whom I know, who would never dream of putting their daughters into burkas. As far as clothes are concerned, from my recollection the family wears western or eastern clothes according to occasion.

It's true that the stonings etc are wrong. I suppose on the plus side you can say that they at least take their religion seriously, as opposed to certain Christians (nearly always of the chattering, establishment variety) who just seem to jump on any passing bandwaggon. If people are going to put their own opinions into the mouth of god, they might as well be honest and cut out the middleman.

My own personal view on morality is, god is entitled to his opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.

[ChainzCooper]

Yeah, I have never really understood Islam and Muslim culture. From stoning people in public squares to honor killings in the name of your family to declaring fatwahs on people who don't regard Muhammad as all supreme along with countless other things, its just something I've shyed away from. But then again religion isn't really my cup of tea anyways. Regarding the burkas (or whatever they're called I guess thats the right term) there was a woman in the U.S. who sued because she wanted to wear it on her drivers license photograph. Obviously the DMV said she couldn't do it but I think the ACLU backed her saying it violated her civil rights and she won. Maybe I got the story wrong but if I didn't when my license expires I'm wearing a ski mask and all black into the office. 'Everybody stay cool this is a license renewal'
Jordan

[belinda]

The most hypoccritical thing I see here is women forced to wear head scarves yashmaks and even once a Burka yet the men they are with are almost always dressed in western style clothes. I even see little girls with headscarves on.

The trouble is as mentioned above women are indoctrinated from childhood that they cause men to have evil lusfull thoughts so they must cover themselves or they are insulting God/Allah who as we all know is a man.

In documentaries about Ancient Egypt I have been watching lately some of the female archeaologists are now wearing headscarves while the men are dressed in western style.

Islamic women are the only ones who can change this yet they have practically no power to do so.

I know of one woman who had to leave her country because of death threats about the "radical views" she was promoting.

I have also heard Islamic men saying how much the Islamic religion values women. What as I don't know

[c.d.]

What do folk think about the great burka bust-up? If I were a Moslem woman, I wouldn't wear one - how can you have a fag with one of those on?

uh...you are talking about cigarettes, right? You see, here in the U.S....uh...never mind.

c.d.

[Limehouse]

Claire-you are not alone--- I "ve been on the receiving end of a particular brand of "Caz vitriol " myself and I am pretty sick of it too- so right on---you tell her!
On the Burka ,the point is where will the repression stop ? If Hindu fundamentalists also begin to insist that in the name of religious purity "widow burning" should be restored would that be OK too? Will the endorsement of wife battering follow because certain religious groups claim it is part of their traditional faith? Will the stoning of adulterous women be the next " religious practice" to be endorsed ?
Cheers
Norma

Good points Norma. A dress code is one thing, but, as you say, it could be the start of a long line of strong-arm tactics imposed in the name of religeon. And that was a good point claire made - why are these things imposed on women? I was really shocked at the cleric who blamed women for earth quakes etc. How could a sane man suggest such a thing? And why would anyone take notice of him?

[Natalie Severn]

Claire-you are not alone--- I "ve been on the receiving end of a particular brand of "Caz vitriol " myself and I am pretty sick of it too- so right on---you tell her!
On the Burka ,the point is where will the repression stop ? If Hindu fundamentalists also begin to insist that in the name of religious purity "widow burning" should be restored would that be OK too? Will the endorsement of wife battering follow because certain religious groups claim it is part of their traditional faith? Will the stoning of adulterous women be the next " religious practice" to be endorsed ?
Cheers
Norma

[claire]

Caz,
Thanks so much for putting me straight. It is always a distinct pleasure to encounter someone who not only wants to tell people how misguided and offensive they are whilst refusing to actually engage in the real debate or put themselves in any sort of frontline. Your entire response seemed intended to draw me as some sort of BNP sympathising idiot; I don't appreciate it. In fact, frankly, how dare you?
It's very, very easy to sit in the west deploying your nasty little superiority complex, but having spent years in various parts of the middle east and watched the struggles of young women to make something of themselves, only to be stamped on by men who hide behind the cleric's mask, I think I prefer to trust my own judgement on this rather than your vitriol.
Go pick on someone else, Caz. Go put someone else straight about their deficiencies on all matters that you wander past and feel like chipping in to.

And if that gets me banned, then that's just hilarious.

[Limehouse]

I think that may be more in our minds than theirs, Limehouse. In any case, if it was man who first put his woman in a burka, it would imply that he knew what men were like and didn't trust them. It is, after all, the male's biological must-have, to fancy the burka off the female of the species.

The point is surely, that all women should be able to trust men to behave themselves while still desiring - from a safe distance. I don't believe that women who wear a burka do so because they assume they are irresistible to men. Some are going to have faces and bodies that only a mother could love.

While it is my firm belief that women should be able to wear what we damn well like, wherever we are in the world, and there should be no laws to stop us doing so, we are responsible for the reaction we cause by our appearance, if we are well aware what that reaction is likely to be, and we go ahead regardless. In any civilised society, we should be able to choose our religion, choose our husband and choose our clothes. But we can't choose where we were born and we can't always choose where we live.

Women who have the choice, and choose to wear the full burka, should at least bear in mind that there are women stuck in other countries and cultures, who don't have the luxury of choice and have to wear it against their will. As a powerful symbol of male on female repression, it does send out mixed messages when women adopt the symbol of their own accord for some other reason. Their reasons may be their own business, but people will make assumptions and you can't stop them. Maybe the women who wear it by choice (for modesty or to stop men ogling or whatever) could make a stand for the women who don't have that choice, by picking a certain colour that would communicate to everyone a "right on" message.

But as Rubyretro says, women get slapped twice if they are punished by the law for being forced by their husbands to wear the thing. That has got to be the wrong way to deal with this perceived 'problem'.

Love,

Caz
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I agree almost entirely Caz. I believe that in some cases, women are told that they should cover their faces to avoid unwanted attention from men and I believe that that in itself is disrespectful to men because it implies they cannot control their desires/emotions and it is also disrespectful to women because it makes them responsible for the so-called out-of-control men.

It should be the choice of the woman if and why she wears a Burka but I do sympathise with people who feel they are out of place in western society.

[Rubyretro]

We totally agree on something then !!!!

I would be happy to meet anyone wearing a Burka (less their husband !) -I only mean't that it was highly unlikely that I would in the ordinary run of things..

[Robert]

Being sartorially challenged, I'm not sure exactly what these terms "burka," "yashmak" etc mean, but there you go.

Bob Hope once complimented a woman on her sari, to be told that it was a sarong. He replied "Sorry I was so wrong."

[caz]

,
I agree with you in theory, but it is impossible to 'mingle' in a burka, and although I have many Moslem friends, it is extremely unlikely that I would ever meet any burka wearing women socially, nor even professionally.
I would say that wearing the burka deliberately keeps them segregated -and equally segregated from ordinary Moslems as much as me.

Hi Rubyretro,

If women don't want to meet me socially, I can assure you it won't worry me in the slightest. And I won't care whether they only have their eyes peeping out at the world or proudly sporting their birthday suit.

Love,

Caz
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[Casebook Wiki Editor]

I am in Malaysia at the moment and the woman in front of me at Passport Control had a burka on. I was wondering how in Allah's name would they know it was her? Bizarre.

[caz]

There was a case recently where a hotel landlady refused to give a room to two gay men. They complained, and the last I heard the police were looking into it (into the case, not the room).

Yeah, I heard about that one, Robert.

I do feel it should be up to the landlady to decide who she wants sleeping in her bed, but I also think her business head needs testing. The pink pound is not to be sniffed at, and if the boys had enjoyed their stay they would have told all their friends (gay and straight) and she could have had new customers coming out of her ears. And they would probably have run up bedroom curtains for her too.

Hotels or guest houses run by gay men are among the very best, smartest and cleanest I've ever stayed in. But there's nowt so queer as homophobic seaside landladies.

Love,

Caz
X

[Rubyretro]

I would hope that as people mingle more and more with liberated types like us

,
I agree with you in theory, but it is impossible to 'mingle' in a burka, and although I have many Moslem friends, it is extremely unlikely that I would ever meet any burka wearing women socially, nor even professionally.
I would say that wearing the burka deliberately keeps them segregated -and equally segregated from ordinary Moslems as much as me.

edit: I would like to point out, as I was making crude 'burka' jokes, that I am English, married to a Portuguese husband and we live in France, and so immigrant integration/discrimination is something which I have experienced at first hand -and I can assure you that the English are the butt of many a joke here, and are disliked in some places (the Luberon -not far away) for pushing up house prices
and causing businesses and schools to close. The North African Moslems here are far more of the French culture than I am, and have far more 'right' to be here (due to a colonial history). Burka wearers are a whole different story as they are actively working to destabalise our society by being provocative and deliberately not attempting to integrate/participate.

[caz]

I'm afraid that I did once buy one, in Qatar...it came in very handy for Hallowe'en.

Ah, well the Croydon BNP candidate at the last election (she lost, thankfully) got into a bit of a row recently for wearing one to a fancy dress party, so I won't be following suit.

She also made a tit of herself by saying that the Cumbrian gunman should have come down south and used his bullets to get rid of unwanted... well, I'll let you guess the rest.

Love,

Caz
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