Burka

[Robert]

Hi Limehouse

Well, if capital punishment deters only some of the would-be murderers, it will have done its job.

I am not making any assertions about you personally, but I do honestly think that in general those who are constantly championing the criminals' "rights" do have less sympathy for the victims. In fact, I think that's probably because the "humanitarians" are potential criminals themselves. Criminals manque, as it were.

[Limehouse]

Hi Nats

Certainly I would allow the relatives of the victim to attend the execution, if they wished. It's funny that you should mention public executions, for anti-hanging film-makers have never had any problem re-enacting executions to show the "cruelty" of the punishment. In such cases, however, they usually come over all squeamish at the idea of depicting what the murderer actually did to his victims. There are no flashbacks to when the victims were innocent little children, and how they were once happy, etc etc. If the victims get on screen at all, it's usually in the first few minutes, after which the next hour or more is spent whitewashing the murderer.

Birch - yes.
Stocks and pillory - might offer them to those on very short sentences as an alternative to jail. The trouble would be, how do you stop people throwing dangerous objects instead of tomatoes?
Hand cut off for stealing - no. If the State makes a mistake, there's no possibility of rectification, and unlike hanging, where the general population's very lives depend on deterrence, the stakes here aren't high enough. So a prison sentence would do.

Perhaps those who argue that short prison sentences don't deter and long prison sentences don't deter and capital punishment doesn't deter and it's all so terribly inhumane and beastly - perhaps those people would like to disclose how they would tackle crime. And please don't tell me that crooks can be "redeemed" with a copy of the New Testament in one hand and a book by Lord Longford in the other.

Hi Robert

Do you really think the threat of capital punishment deterred people from committing murder? For example - when Brady and Hindley killed those children - capital punishment was still in force and they could easily have been hanged. Was there no child murder before capital punishment was abolished - and is there more of it now because there is no capital punishment? I don't think so.

There is also an assumption that that those of us who don't want to see a return to capital punishment have less sympathy for victims of murder but that is not the case at all. It is because I want to see fewer victims of crime that I think it so important to get the balance right in dealing with crime and criminals.

I don't believe people are born evil - I believe they are made that way by a variety of issues too numerous and complicated to go into on this thread (about burkas!) but as a society we have to work together to make positive outcomes more rewarding than negative outcomes. Perhaps I'll start a thread on 'how to put our society right'. One thing's for sure. It won't include any ideas about 'big society' from me!

Have a good day all.

[Robert]

Good night Nats. If you can't get to sleep, count MPs jumping over a watchdog.

[Natalie Severn]

It really is outrageous .Its the damn cheek they have that gets me too.
Night
Robert

[Robert]

Don't worry, Nats, you haven't heard what I'd do to the MPs!

But I don't think we can say that because some prats get away with all kinds of nonsense, therefore we should let everyone else off. We should tighten the screw on the MPs. We can at least make a start by not voting for them.

I suppose you noticed that when Mr Laws resigned - in order to clear his name, or whatever - he was entitled to a severance bonus of several thousand pounds. It may have been £20K, I can't remember. He voluntarily decided to forgo that payment. However, he had been in the job for about TWO WEEKS and so the question of his ability to claim it should not have arisen.

[Natalie Severn]

Lets start with the law makers....

Perhaps those who argue that short prison sentences don't deter and long prison sentences don't deter and capital punishment doesn't deter and it's all so terribly inhumane and beastly - perhaps those people would like to disclose how they would tackle crime. And please don't tell me that crooks can be "redeemed" with a copy of the New Testament in one hand and a book by Lord Longford in the other.

Well I think I would start Robert by encouraging those privileged MP"s of ours to each and every one of them lead by good "example" ---for they are the ones who make and pass the laws !
For example we must ensure that those who govern our country are not corrupt themselves and can therefore set a good example to the rest of society.Its really no good having an MP who "uses" our tax money to have the moat of his "second home" ---a castle in Scotland --- cleaned out at our expense -or the female MP who bought her relatives second homes ---or others who misuse taxpayers money, being seen by these crooks you speak of as kind of superior , above the law, swindlers and crooks themselves! So if instead these law makers could give a lead---and start by "desisting from the temptation " to filch tax payers money by a loophole in the law regarding their expenses claims and instead begin to set a decent example, at least to the small time "crooks" that you say you would have birched.
Each and every one of these law makers probably started out with better life opportunities and almost certainly today enjoy a far better standard of living than your average "crook"--so it shouldnt really come as a great surprise if the hoi polloi start to imitate them should it?

So lets begin with exemplary behaviour from the law makers..............

Cheers
Norma

[Robert]

Hi Nats

Certainly I would allow the relatives of the victim to attend the execution, if they wished. It's funny that you should mention public executions, for anti-hanging film-makers have never had any problem re-enacting executions to show the "cruelty" of the punishment. In such cases, however, they usually come over all squeamish at the idea of depicting what the murderer actually did to his victims. There are no flashbacks to when the victims were innocent little children, and how they were once happy, etc etc. If the victims get on screen at all, it's usually in the first few minutes, after which the next hour or more is spent whitewashing the murderer.

Birch - yes.
Stocks and pillory - might offer them to those on very short sentences as an alternative to jail. The trouble would be, how do you stop people throwing dangerous objects instead of tomatoes?
Hand cut off for stealing - no. If the State makes a mistake, there's no possibility of rectification, and unlike hanging, where the general population's very lives depend on deterrence, the stakes here aren't high enough. So a prison sentence would do.

Perhaps those who argue that short prison sentences don't deter and long prison sentences don't deter and capital punishment doesn't deter and it's all so terribly inhumane and beastly - perhaps those people would like to disclose how they would tackle crime. And please don't tell me that crooks can be "redeemed" with a copy of the New Testament in one hand and a book by Lord Longford in the other.

[Natalie Severn]

Hindley Robert-----I would join you with your fag.
But Robert,you havent answered my question.Why not go the whole hog and have public hangings ,the birch,the stocks, the pillory ,hands cut off for stealing a sheep .whoops---I forgot -it was a hanging offence wasnt it ? So why not go the whole hog?
Cheers
Norma

[Robert]

Hi Claire

As I understand it, evidence in camera is reserved for situations where there would be a risk to a witness's safety if they gave evidence in open court. The fact is, the jury is entitled to look at the face of the witness/defendant, to try to gauge whether they look confident/shifty/pleased/upset etc. It isn't a question of establishing identity. If the question of identity depends on anyone on the jury actually knowing the person concerned, then they should tell the Judge that they know the person and they will be discharged from the jury.

[claire]

Well Claire, the thing about a court appearance is, that if a woman is giving evidence as a witness or a defendant, it's important for the jury to be able to see her face. And men serve on juries. For that matter, the barristers and the judge must see her face too.

Why? There are plenty of cases where witnesses give evidence in camera. There's no supposition under the law that the jury should be able to identify them; as far as a judge is concerned, the important thing is that he or she should be able to satisfy themselves as to the individual's identity. If a juror is unable to accept that there are some cases where they must rely on others' expertise, then it's arguable that there is no place for them on a jury.

But, I do take your point. In a western society we feel more comfortable talking to, or listening to, a face. As you note, it is easier to read (and trust) a person who we (ie. westernised Brits etc) can see.

[Robert]

Hi Nats

No, there's nothing fundamentalist or religious about me. I don't believe in gods, including the little tin ones.

For me, the issue of capital punishment hinges on a trade-off between the need for deterrence, on the one side, and the risk of a miscarriage of justice on the other. It's a matter for the people to decide.

I have no moral qualms whatsoever about executing a murderer. I would pull the lever to send Hindley through the floor and I would smoke a fag while doing it. I save my sympathy for human beings, not for the scum who kill them.

[Natalie Severn]

Robert,
I was honestly a bit surprised there still was a 'Bring Back Hanging" lobby? Are you going to volunteer as Britain"s next hangman then Robert? Is this all to do with supporting fundamentalism of one kind or another?
I know there is a lot of public flogging ,public beheadings and a fair bit of public stoning in quite a few countries where fundamentalism is rife- and some thousands of women languishing in jails because they would prefer to live in a secular society ----in fact they would prefer to live under some sort of Democracy if possible.........but where is this going to end---are we actually going to lobby for widow burning to be allowed as well in honour of certain fundamentalist religious "revivals"?

[Robert]

Nats, the capital punishment argument has its pros and cons. Ultimately its a matter for the people. A referendum would appear to be in order.

BTW, of all the arguments I've heard against the death penalty, your "laughing stock" argument has to be the wackiest.

"What ever would the neighbours say?"

Hanney! You have been consuming electricity! Take fifty power lines.

HSQ, MA

[Suzi]

Hi Nats
OK burka- sorry my spelling mistake there- yep got to be live an let live I guess- But.... That story of your there says it all I reckon..
Suz xx

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Bob,
Well I can go along with the idea of life meaning life for murder but I can"t go along with the idea of the law being allowed to make the odd mistake by hanging an innocent person because this is a safer option for society than letting murderers go free after serving a bogus "life" sentence.




Caps,
You make an absolutely valid point about it appearing to be one rule for women and another for men .Last Summer I saw a woman dressed in a burka-[btw -I wish I could write in beautiful Arabic script like you apparently can!].The woman had on not only the burka, but a veil over her eyes and was groping her way forward with some difficulty under the shops lights and life looked quite a struggle what with the heat, pushing a buggy with a baby in it ---[the rear of the buggy was bulging with plastic shopping bags] and she was trying to hold onto her other child as best she could ,by the hand.However the male she was with, presumably her husband, was walking ahead of her , free handed and dressed in modern denim jeans and T shirt .
No knowing either whether or not this was one of the many arranged marriages that have become quite common here.

Live and let live I suppose?