Fidel Castro Has Died

[c.d.]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/former-cuban-leader-fidel-castro-dies-aged-90/ar-AAkMe3X?li=BBnb7Kz

c.d.

[GUT]

Interesting times perhaps.

[Wickerman]

Interesting times perhaps.

Hmm, one western Russian puppet falls, just as another is about to surface...

[Patrick S]

"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."

[Syrius]

Interesting times indeed. Old age did what 600+ assassination attempts couldn't!

REALLY interesting in a couple of years, when Raul Castro retires...then that generation are all out, effectively...what comes next?

[Robert]

Cuba declared nine days of mourning, during which time the ashes will be taken to different parts of the country. A burial ceremony will be held on Dec. 4.

As a mark of respect, he will be buried in an ash-tray.

[Mayerling]

Cuba declared nine days of mourning, during which time the ashes will be taken to different parts of the country. A burial ceremony will be held on Dec. 4.

As a mark of respect, he will be buried in an ash-tray.

Odd feelings for me. To his nation he was hero and monster. Here he was one of the enemy. But I can't help realizing that he survived his coming to power, and unlike his Kremlin and Peking allies, he passed his title on quietly to his brother and heir without problem, and soon the difficulties with the U.S. began to dissipate. How long that will last with the idiot we have as President now I can't tell, but if Trump is being a willing patsy for Putin maybe the improvement in relations with Cuba will continue.

Jeff

[Patrick S]

Odd feelings for me. To his nation he was hero and monster. Here he was one of the enemy. But I can't help realizing that he survived his coming to power, and unlike his Kremlin and Peking allies, he passed his title on quietly to his brother and heir without problem, and soon the difficulties with the U.S. began to dissipate. How long that will last with the idiot we have as President now I can't tell, but if Trump is being a willing patsy for Putin maybe the improvement in relations with Cuba will continue.

Jeff

What's odd about your feelings? I ask because I'm often confused by any ambiguity when it comes to Castro. Years ago I was working in baseball just outside Miami and I had the opportunity to play with and become friends with many Cubans. I had dinner at their homes. I met many of their families. I never met anyone who thought Castro was a hero. Every one of them thought he was a monster. Now, these people were not shy when it came to discussing Castro and his impact on Cuba. In fact, it seemed like their favorite topic. I saw men and women who were otherwise smiling, gentle people fly into absolute rages about Castro and what he'd done to Cuba and - in many cases - their friends and families there. I understood, of course, that it was to be expected that these people wouldn't be huge fans of Castro in that either they or their parents risked their lives to escape the Cuba that Castro had created.

A good friend of mine told me his family came to the U.S. because Castro essentially outlawed Catholicism (and religion in general but the island was heavily Catholic). He closed the schools, sent clergy packing, and mandated that the people eschew religion and embrace atheism (Now, I'm an atheist, but I'm capable of seeing how this may upset people). Another told me that his uncle was a local politician who had opposed Castro. He faced a firing squad a few years after Castro came to power. I had dinner with a woman who told me that her family once owned a lot of land in Cuba. They were farmers, fairly well off. Castro's men came and seized the land. They were not given time to get all of their belongings. They took what they could carry and got into trucks. They were dropped in a village a few miles away. Her grandfather apparently made too big a fuss over the situation. He went to prison and died there. I don't know why many seem to not want to believe Cubans when it comes to Castro. Pick a Cuban, any Cuban, and tell him or her that you think Castro wasn't that bad. They'll very energetically try and dissuade you from any odd feelings you may have about Fidel. To them he was - simply - a liar, a thief, a rapist, a murderer. I don't presume not to take them at their word.

[Mayerling]

What's odd about your feelings? I ask because I'm often confused by any ambiguity when it comes to Castro. Years ago I was working in baseball just outside Miami and I had the opportunity to play with and become friends with many Cubans. I had dinner at their homes. I met many of their families. I never met anyone who thought Castro was a hero. Every one of them thought he was a monster. Now, these people were not shy when it came to discussing Castro and his impact on Cuba. In fact, it seemed like their favorite topic. I saw men and women who were otherwise smiling, gentle people fly into absolute rages about Castro and what he'd done to Cuba and - in many cases - their friends and families there. I understood, of course, that it was to be expected that these people wouldn't be huge fans of Castro in that either they or their parents risked their lives to escape the Cuba that Castro had created.

A good friend of mine told me his family came to the U.S. because Castro essentially outlawed Catholicism (and religion in general but the island was heavily Catholic). He closed the schools, sent clergy packing, and mandated that the people eschew religion and embrace atheism (Now, I'm an atheist, but I'm capable of seeing how this may upset people). Another told me that his uncle was a local politician who had opposed Castro. He faced a firing squad a few years after Castro came to power. I had dinner with a woman who told me that her family once owned a lot of land in Cuba. They were farmers, fairly well off. Castro's men came and seized the land. They were not given time to get all of their belongings. They took what they could carry and got into trucks. They were dropped in a village a few miles away. Her grandfather apparently made too big a fuss over the situation. He went to prison and died there. I don't know why many seem to not want to believe Cubans when it comes to Castro. Pick a Cuban, any Cuban, and tell him or her that you think Castro wasn't that bad. They'll very energetically try and dissuade you from any odd feelings you may have about Fidel. To them he was - simply - a liar, a thief, a rapist, a murderer. I don't presume not to take them at their word.

You are right, and perhaps I misjudged my comment a bit. Years ago I worked in a service position in Manhattan, and many in the apartment house staff were now elevator operators, doormen, or porters. Many came from Cuba, and they hated the man. With reason - there they had been in the middle classes, while here (when they escaped with their lives) they were in comparatively menial positions.

In that case he is no hero, but what you pointed out "simply - a liar, a thief, a rapist, a murderer." All is true. But one can't stay in power anywhere as long as that without popular backing. There were Cubans in Cuba who must have supported what he did. Otherwise he would not have lasted for so many decades. Fear, of course, may still many critical tongues, but fear is not the soul reason (nor is ambition). From what I understood when I studied on Latin America, Castro did improve medical training (counter this with the difficulties in upgrading medical equipment). He also kept Cuba in a unique position in the hemisphere, as the only country to successfully confront the U.S. (one can say he lucked out here too, as he was backed by Russia from 1959 to the 1980s, but there was no major push when the Soviet Union collapsed to overturn Castro - at least none I ever heard of - like the "Bay of Pigs" attack).

Again I remain somewhat at mixed bearings regarding the man. He left a mark on history - as did heroes like Bolivar, San Martin, Juarez, Cardenas...and villains like Peron, Huerta, Solano Lopez, Stroessner (who had similar longevity to Castro). You takes your pick, and decides for yourself. I choose to remain ambiguous.

Jeff

[Syrius]

Surely one must assume that Miami Cubans had little time for Castro, and that's why they're in Miami, not in Havana? That's not to call them liars, necessarily.

I have visited Cuba a couple of times and met people who were hugely pro-Castro and people who were hugely anti-Castro; my own limited experience in this area has led me to believe that his support derived mainly from the older generation (1950s-era) who saw the Cuban nationalist Castro as one choice, and the US-backed Batista as the other.

Didn't Castro have a sister in Miami? Is she still alive?

[Patrick S]

Surely one must assume that Miami Cubans had little time for Castro, and that's why they're in Miami, not in Havana? That's not to call them liars, necessarily.

I have visited Cuba a couple of times and met people who were hugely pro-Castro and people who were hugely anti-Castro; my own limited experience in this area has led me to believe that his support derived mainly from the older generation (1950s-era) who saw the Cuban nationalist Castro as one choice, and the US-backed Batista as the other.

Didn't Castro have a sister in Miami? Is she still alive?

Castro's sister is still alive and still in the U.S. She'd be in her 80's as she's the younger of the two. If I remember correctly she owned a store or pharmacy in Miami, later selling it to one of the ubiquitous U.S. pharmacy chains, Walgreens or CVS.

I made the point in my original post that it stands to reason that - since they fled Cuba - Miami Cubans are anti-Castro. Although, I'd suggest that since the U.S. government documents 1.2 million legal Cuban refugees currently living in United States, may be an indication that Castro may not have been the benevolent agrarian reformer that the Sean Penn's of the world would like to remember him as (Note: It's estimated that there are an estimated 500,000 Cubans that have fled to other countries like Australia, Spain, and other Caribbean states). Bear in mind that Cuba's population at time Castro seized power was around 7 million and it's currently around 11 million. So those that have successfully fled represent a significant percentage of the overall Cuban population.

I'm not interested or passionate enough to sustain a debate about Castro. I understand that no minds will be changed, and while that's not something that on it's own normally dissuades me from debate, I also don't think it offers much entertainment value. I've always found that viewing murderous, genocidal, megalomaniacal dictators as revolutionary reformers who have just gotten a bad rap is a curious characteristic of our self-described "enlightened" liberal western democracies. I don't see that changing any time soon.