EU Vote

[Svensson]

A couple of points:

1. what does the Hungarian referendum have to do with Merkel? It is about EU refugee quotas.

2. The loaded gun is available to buy on the open market. It wasn't "given" to them. The EU had no right or powers to stop Greece from buying a loaded gun.

3. Hayden lived in the 18th century when there was no German state. So the reference to "German" was a cultural one. If anything, Habsburg was part of the Holy Roman empire of German Nations.

4. etc etc.

[Robert]

It is the refugees that Merkel has invited in that the Hungarians are voting on, is it not?

The EU had the right and the power to prevent a country from joining a currency that it was obviously unsuited for.

Yes the Holy Roman Empire was led by Austria, received its death blow from Napoleon, and was then resurrected as the Germanic Confederation. Haydn did not come from the land encompassed by modern Germany.

Unfortunately Prussia unified Germany and it's been downhill traffic ever since.

[Svensson]

A couple more points:

1. Greece were suited to join the Euro.
2. The Greek crisis was not due to their membership of the Euro.
3. The Greek crisis was due to them not being able to pay th debts.

[Robert]

I'm afraid you're in denial, Svensson. But here are three links : one from the BBC (because you obviously have more respect for the BBC than I do) ; one reporting a former ECB fellow ; and one reporting the Compassionate One Herself, the sainted Mama Merkel :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16834815

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-05-26/greece-cheated-to-join-euro-sanctions-since-were-too-soft-issing-says

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/angela-merkel-says-greece-should-never-have-been-allowed-to-join-the-euro-8788435.html

[Svensson]

Robert,

I had to think long and hard if your post deserves a reply and what kind of reply that should be. There was certainly the option to go into A LOT OF detail about your attitude that is steeped in harsh sectarianism and is spiked with a plethora of old-school jingoism. But I'm not here with the intent to fight anyone, so I'll keep this part short. Suffice to say that this is the 21st century; England is no longer a world power and and will never again be one on her own. The Commonwealth is based on centuries of rape and pillage so I don't think that for the UK-"independents" (express, mail, UKIP, BJ, yourself, et al) trying to claim the moral high-ground makes you look all that smart. Such an attitude is sure to make the UK's relationship with the rest of Europe difficult for the next few decades. Your smuggness about having "given ze Germans a jolly-good hiding" is misplaced and the Joke will most probably be on you and your children I'm afraid.

Next, your attempts to drag the discussion into the gutter with unprompted gloating and malicious descriptions like "The compassionate one, Saint Mama Merkel", "Another Anschluss? I don't think there's been another one, unless the Germans did it on the quiet.", "Prussia unified Germany and it's been downhill traffic ever since" could be another discussion altogether but with some balls it is best to just play a leave for the benefit of everyone's sanity. So I'm basically calling Godwin's law on you.

Your articles:

The all confirm the suggestion that Greece did put a gun to their head and they pulled the trigger.

The crisis was in their own making:

"Greece was only able to join the euro through deception", "Greece cheated to get in", "Instead of reforming public finances, Greece borrowed and borrowed to meet the deficit", and finally: "Issing, who joined the ECB a year before the euro’s inception in 1999 and stayed there until 2006, warned yesterday that Greece will probably be unable to honor its debts as it grapples with insolvency."

The three articles, all of which have the luxury of being written in hind-sight of the crisis, do not change the original suggestion at all.

G'day.

[Robert]

Well Svensson, 'sectarianism' is a word normally applied to religious differences, of the kind you might find in Glasgow. I don't recall mentioning religion in the context of the EU.

England is no longer a world power? Good. Let's keep it that way.

Moral high ground? I don't consider myself to be morally superior to the ordinary Germans. I do consider myself morally superior to German politicians, but then I consider myself morally superior to politicians in general. And I insist that even without Hitler, German unification was a mistake. But you're stuck with that and unfortunately, just as you can never unscramble eggs, so it is very difficult to return an omelette to its scrambled state.

I am not smug about giving the Germans a good hiding, though I am proud of the role we played. But I have always acknowledged that it would not have been possible without the Commonwealth, the Americans and above all the USSR (this latter is something that many people like to forget).

As for the Euro, those in control of a currency are duty-bound to make sure that applicants conform to the criteria. Those people failed.

[Mayerling]

Yes Svensson, I saw the article. Like everything else from the BBC, I take it with a pinch of salt.

The EU doesn't give you immunity from shooting yourself in the head.

Especially when your 'friends' give you a loaded gun.

Haydn. German again

I always thought Haydn was Austrian. Has there been another Anschluss? The last one was 1938. I don't think there's been another one, unless the Germans did it on the quiet.

Joseph Haydn was born in Austria, and lived most of his career in Vienna - among his students was Beethoven. His brother Michael was also a well regarded composer. And he died 1809, so he survived the 18th Century Hapsburg - centered Holy Roman Empire (broken up by Napoleon I in 1806). Than is he survived most of it - the Principality of Liechtenstein is still a surviving remnant of it (and thus the Holy Roman Empire is represented in the United Nations, oddly enough).

Whether or not the Holy Roman Empire was preferable to Bismarck's Second Reich is a matter of opinion, but it really did not do well as the German Confederation as it only lasted 33 years under the guidance of Metternich (1815 - 1848). The Austrians did agree to a dual monarchy for the Hapsburgs under Franz Josef in 1867 (when faced with threats by the Hungarians under Deak and Andrassy to go independent of Austria in the wake of the defeat by Prussia in the Seven Weeks War). The Austrians managed to convince themselves they found a middle way of successful governing ("the Austrian Way, or Method") over dozens of minorities in one empire. It is hard to really accept this point, given how quickly (in the wake or the 1918 defeat) so many of these minorities sought their own countries and destroyed the A-H empire.

The unfortunate Archduke Franz Ferdinand toyed with a plan to create a tri-monarchy (Austrian-Hungarian-Bohemian) when he succeeded to the throne. Since his death (previous to Franz Josef) prevented this we can only speculate if the tri-crown would have worked. Given how complicated the dual monarchy worked in 1914's crisis (Vienna had to keep delaying it's activities awaiting word from Stephen Tirza's government in Budapest) a tri-crown monarchy probaby would have entailed more complicated delays. Also, Franz Ferdinand hoped a crown for a Slavic people held by the Hapsburgs would placate all A-H Slavic peoples. Probably not, especially as Bohemia was not really regarded by the likes of the Slavic groups in the eastern Austro-Hungarian empire as "slavic". It certainly had little in common with people of Serbian or Polish ancestry.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Robert,

I had to think long and hard if your post deserves a reply and what kind of reply that should be. There was certainly the option to go into A LOT OF detail about your attitude that is steeped in harsh sectarianism and is spiked with a plethora of old-school jingoism. But I'm not here with the intent to fight anyone, so I'll keep this part short. Suffice to say that this is the 21st century; England is no longer a world power and and will never again be one on her own. The Commonwealth is based on centuries of rape and pillage so I don't think that for the UK-"independents" (express, mail, UKIP, BJ, yourself, et al) trying to claim the moral high-ground makes you look all that smart. Such an attitude is sure to make the UK's relationship with the rest of Europe difficult for the next few decades. Your smuggness about having "given ze Germans a jolly-good hiding" is misplaced and the Joke will most probably be on you and your children I'm afraid.

Next, your attempts to drag the discussion into the gutter with unprompted gloating and malicious descriptions like "The compassionate one, Saint Mama Merkel", "Another Anschluss? I don't think there's been another one, unless the Germans did it on the quiet.", "Prussia unified Germany and it's been downhill traffic ever since" could be another discussion altogether but with some balls it is best to just play a leave for the benefit of everyone's sanity. So I'm basically calling Godwin's law on you.

Your articles:

The all confirm the suggestion that Greece did put a gun to their head and they pulled the trigger.

The crisis was in their own making:

"Greece was only able to join the euro through deception", "Greece cheated to get in", "Instead of reforming public finances, Greece borrowed and borrowed to meet the deficit", and finally: "Issing, who joined the ECB a year before the euro’s inception in 1999 and stayed there until 2006, warned yesterday that Greece will probably be unable to honor its debts as it grapples with insolvency."

The three articles, all of which have the luxury of being written in hind-sight of the crisis, do not change the original suggestion at all.

G'day.

Hi Svenson,

Actually, except for some small countries that don't bother anyone else (Tierra Del Fuego, for example) no country can ever take a moral highground.
In recent years, despite being Jewish, I find it hard to accept many actions by Israel towards the Palestinians (although I see how extremists on both sides encourage extremist actions by both groups towards each other that worsens the situation). Same in my U.S. - an idea has been kicking around for decades for a government program to pay African-Americans back for the slavery period. It sounds expensive, but it does sound somewhat fair. It is usually hooted down.

Robert showed he's glad Britain is no longer a world power. Actually there was a debate on the validity of Imperial greatness in the 19th Century when Gladstone seemed to champion the "Little England" concept with the Liberals, as opposed to the great Empire idea of Disraeli and the Tories.

As far as I understood from U.S. media, Greece got itself in the economic pickle it is in due to it's huge welfare state programs and small economic growth from home industries and trade. This is not an unusual situation - even at the height of Greek power (around the Age of Pericles) Athens and Sparta tended to require the support of their oversea "allies" or colonies. If it is anything for your arguments Svenson, Athens and Sparta and their empires are somewhat like models for the 19th Century British Empire in how they relied on trade and control to maintain the center.

By the way, what's "Godwin's Law'? Is it named for the 18th Century writer William Godwin?

Jeff

[Robert]

Hi Jeff

I'm sure the Habsburg Empire was a dead duck, as was the Turkish.

I'm not quite sure, but I think the Godwin's Law invoked by Svensson says that if a discussion continues long enough, Hitler will be mentioned.