EU Vote

[Rosella]

What about the Russians?

Though, as an ex Pom, I have been watching the debate from afar and have come to the conclusion if I were still a Brit I'd vote to stay. However, I don't have to live there and make that decision, thank God!

I will say this though, decades ago Britain joined the EU without as much as a backward glance at countries like Australia and New Zealand that had stood beside them in two world wars. Britain joining destroyed Tasmania's apple trade and greatly harmed Oz and NZ meat and dairy exports. So if Britain does leave and it hurts Britain's exports, maybe it's karma. A long time coming, but still...

[GUT]

What about the Russians?

Though, as an ex Pom, I have been watching the debate from afar and have come to the conclusion if I were still a Brit I'd vote to stay. However, I don't have to live there and make that decision, thank God!

I will say this though, decades ago Britain joined the EU without as much as a backward glance at countries like Australia and New Zealand that had stood beside them in two world wars. Britain joining destroyed Tasmania's apple trade and greatly harmed Oz and NZ meat and dairy exports. So if Britain does leave and it hurts Britain's exports, maybe it's karma. A long time coming, but still...

Nah ignore the Ruskies.

If the Poms do get out of the EU it might help Aus and NZ trade in agricultural products, lamb beef, butter apples etc.

[Ginger]

I can promise you that if you do leave, you'll not be at "the back of the queue" for trade deals, regardless of what our braying jackass of a President might say.

A couple questions, too: What effect (if any) do people feel the French chaos is having? Lots of distress being voiced by the Leave campaign over the extension of registration, but I really do think that with what's going on in France, it's probably helping them more than hurting.

I have the impression that Cameron has pretty much destroyed his career, and at this point NEEDS a Remain result by any means possible, so that he can have a post in Brussels. Does anyone else have that impression?

[Mayerling]

What about the Russians?

Though, as an ex Pom, I have been watching the debate from afar and have come to the conclusion if I were still a Brit I'd vote to stay. However, I don't have to live there and make that decision, thank God!

I will say this though, decades ago Britain joined the EU without as much as a backward glance at countries like Australia and New Zealand that had stood beside them in two world wars. Britain joining destroyed Tasmania's apple trade and greatly harmed Oz and NZ meat and dairy exports. So if Britain does leave and it hurts Britain's exports, maybe it's karma. A long time coming, but still...

Sorry Rosella, but what is a "Pom"? I keep thinking it is an Easterm European nickname, but the only one I can think of is "Pomeranian", which is a person from a section of Germany that became part of Prussia in the 18th Century.
Am I right about that?

Unfortunately international status and power frequently involves double crossing lesser groups, even when connected by historical ties. It's happened with the U.S. several times, most recently with the treatment of the bankrtuptcy of Puerto Rico, that had to wait for some form of assistance by our Congress. I don't know much about Tasmania's apple trade (I didn't even realize apples were part of their economy), and knew something about the New Zealand and Australian sheep industry tied to their sale of lamb and mutton meat, but even a hundred years earlier such treatment existed during the height of the Empire: the U.S. and Canada had rival claims to whale and fishing rights in the Behring Strait, and it went to an arbitration in 1899/1900. Britain's foreign secretary, Joseph Chamberlain, pushed British support towards the U.S. over Canada at the time - principally because in the wake of our Cuban-Spanish-American War and the Second Anglo-Boer War, both countries were looked at with some disdain on the continent of Europe, and it struck the British Government to cultivate a friendlier relationship with the U.S. rather than push for Canadian rights in the dispute.

Jeff

[GUT]

A Pom or POME OReven POHM is an English person.

The origin is debated, with some options being

They looked like a Pomegranate

Or

Prisoner Of Her Majesty.

Or

Prisoner Of Mother England

[GUT]

Some works describe it as a derogatory term, to most Aussies it's not.

My brother in law for example and indeed my favourite nieces husband will both always be Pommy Bs to me and I think highly of both, just as my friends from America are all Yanks and those from New Zealand are Kiwis.

[Pcdunn]

just as my friends from America are all Yanks...

Right, GUT, but your friends from certain Southern States may well consider that compliment an insult ("d**n Yankee indeed!")

I don't mind. My ancestors landed in the East or MiddleWest and kept Westering until they hit the Pacific shores and had to stop. I think Mark Twain is a symbol of our wandering spirit, being born a Southerner, riding west to Nevada and California, and eventually settling in the Yankee state of Connecticut, then traveling the globe. We're hard to pin down, we Yanks.

[GUT]

Right, GUT, but your friends from certain Southern States may well consider that compliment an insult ("d**n Yankee indeed!")

I don't mind. My ancestors landed in the East or MiddleWest and kept Westering until they hit the Pacific shores and had to stop. I think Mark Twain is a symbol of our wandering spirit, being born a Southerner, riding west to Nevada and California, and eventually settling in the Yankee state of Connecticut, then traveling the globe. We're hard to pin down, we Yanks.

Oh I know about north and south, but still all Yanks down here.

[John Wheat]

Hi,

I am actually shocked about the way this discussion chosen to go with the Anti-German, "let's mention the war" mentality in from Page 1 onwards. 3 Weeks ago, Boris Johnson compared the EU to Hitler. Pretty much one of the most offensive statements in recent years. This is the kind of populist right-wing demagoguery that we are now all too used to from people like Donald Trump, Jean Marie Le Pen, Geert Wilders and a number of others.

Also the accusation that Germany's war-aim was to create a custom zone is simply ridiculous. I dig my history where I can but this is certainly something that I have never heard of. Maybe I should just point out here that it was in fact the British Empire that was built on trade and war (and a few trade-wars thrown in for good measure), but this obviously does not fit the narrative, does it?

But following Boris Johnson's Hitler comment, the fact that Jacob Reece-Mogg actually came out and defended this comment was probably even more disturbing. This entire debate is legitimising racism and populism that would have simply been unthinkable here in the UK only 5 years ago and this is something that nobody is really talking about.

I am of German descent and I have been living in London for 24 years. I follow the news in the UK as well as in Germany and it was always apparent that parts of the UK press is systematically hostile towards the EU and Germany for the simple reason that they appeal to a particular audience who are willing to buy the latest edition of the Daily Mail, Daily Express and Daily Telegraph. The narrative has always been a cash-cow that was lucrative enough to be maintained. The EU actually has a Website ("Euromyths") that has a real job on its hands to correct one horror story after another from the UK papers. The problem is that the UK press was allowed to run riot with this systematic misinformation for years and years, so as soon as Cameron called for the Referendum, it was too late to have a serious and balanced debate on the subject. I think the UK will vote to leave the EU and it will be based on false information that the electorate have received for years (not that Cameron was ever capable of setting the record straight. Like someone mentioned, "cometh the hour, cometh the mouse").

I will vote to remain, simply because there is not one argument of the leave campaign that has convinced me to vote leave. Not a single one.

This vote is not about geo-political decisions, if the EU has a "sufficient share of World-wide GDP" or similar. Besides, this is impossible to trend as the size of the EU keeps changing and the sizes of its individual economies do too. This vote is about an ever more interconnected world and how to deal with it. Is the UKL going to withdraw from it and take a step , literally, backwards, or is it going to engage and attempt to take the bull by the horns?

Finally, the problem with the Leave compagin is that much of their arguments are basically lies that they are hell-bent on perpetuating even though they have been corrected and called out many times over. They hage even been asked to stop claiming that the UK pays 350 million every week to the EU because this figure is simply not correct. There are countless examples of lies and misrepresentations that would go beyond this post/thread/forum but a couple of more points if I may:

- the Leave Campaign is headed by a Opportunist career politician Boris Johnson who is the UK's own version of Donald Trump. He has flip-flopped on EU issues in order to advance his own career. His side-kick is Michael Gove, a failed Minister for Schools whose ONLY policy was to attack teachers and school in a pretty despicable manner. Still in the Leave-camp but hated by all other protagonists in the EU referendum is Nigel Farrage and his pack of open racists, closet racists, mysogonists and common garden weirdos. So that's already a gang and a half, but nothing compared to:

- Trump and Putin and supporting the Leave campaign.

- the rest of Europe is pretty much at the point where they had enough of the UK's Primadonna behaviour for the last 20 years. They want the UK to stay as it would be a stronger union but if you have been called a "cesspit of stinking such and such" and have been compared to Hitler, I don't think that the UK will get any sort of favours from the EU whatsoever. Any sort of trade agreement will be on the EU's terms or there will be no agreement, so the entire "we don't want to get pushed around by the EU any longer" exercise will be self-defeating.

- I 100% agree with John Major when he let it rip last sunday: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36454782

- Someone mentioned Norway as an example. The thing is that Norway is a very specialised economy around shipping and oil. the UK on he other hand is a very diverse trade, services and goods-based econonmy. Besides, Norway are paying almost as much as the UK per capita to have access to the EU market and still need to realistically consider and many of the EU regulations in order to continue trading with the other 500 million customers in that market. Again, such a model would mean that a Leave vote would be self defeating.

- the UK and the US have nothing in common apart from a language.

So, rant over. Thanks for listening.

Oh, and I love the site.

Great post Svensson. I agree with everything your saying.

Cheers John

[Limehouse]

Hi,

I am actually shocked about the way this discussion chosen to go with the Anti-German, "let's mention the war" mentality in from Page 1 onwards. 3 Weeks ago, Boris Johnson compared the EU to Hitler. Pretty much one of the most offensive statements in recent years. This is the kind of populist right-wing demagoguery that we are now all too used to from people like Donald Trump, Jean Marie Le Pen, Geert Wilders and a number of others.

Also the accusation that Germany's war-aim was to create a custom zone is simply ridiculous. I dig my history where I can but this is certainly something that I have never heard of. Maybe I should just point out here that it was in fact the British Empire that was built on trade and war (and a few trade-wars thrown in for good measure), but this obviously does not fit the narrative, does it?

But following Boris Johnson's Hitler comment, the fact that Jacob Reece-Mogg actually came out and defended this comment was probably even more disturbing. This entire debate is legitimising racism and populism that would have simply been unthinkable here in the UK only 5 years ago and this is something that nobody is really talking about.

I am of German descent and I have been living in London for 24 years. I follow the news in the UK as well as in Germany and it was always apparent that parts of the UK press is systematically hostile towards the EU and Germany for the simple reason that they appeal to a particular audience who are willing to buy the latest edition of the Daily Mail, Daily Express and Daily Telegraph. The narrative has always been a cash-cow that was lucrative enough to be maintained. The EU actually has a Website ("Euromyths") that has a real job on its hands to correct one horror story after another from the UK papers. The problem is that the UK press was allowed to run riot with this systematic misinformation for years and years, so as soon as Cameron called for the Referendum, it was too late to have a serious and balanced debate on the subject. I think the UK will vote to leave the EU and it will be based on false information that the electorate have received for years (not that Cameron was ever capable of setting the record straight. Like someone mentioned, "cometh the hour, cometh the mouse").

I will vote to remain, simply because there is not one argument of the leave campaign that has convinced me to vote leave. Not a single one.

This vote is not about geo-political decisions, if the EU has a "sufficient share of World-wide GDP" or similar. Besides, this is impossible to trend as the size of the EU keeps changing and the sizes of its individual economies do too. This vote is about an ever more interconnected world and how to deal with it. Is the UKL going to withdraw from it and take a step , literally, backwards, or is it going to engage and attempt to take the bull by the horns?

Finally, the problem with the Leave compagin is that much of their arguments are basically lies that they are hell-bent on perpetuating even though they have been corrected and called out many times over. They hage even been asked to stop claiming that the UK pays 350 million every week to the EU because this figure is simply not correct. There are countless examples of lies and misrepresentations that would go beyond this post/thread/forum but a couple of more points if I may:

- the Leave Campaign is headed by a Opportunist career politician Boris Johnson who is the UK's own version of Donald Trump. He has flip-flopped on EU issues in order to advance his own career. His side-kick is Michael Gove, a failed Minister for Schools whose ONLY policy was to attack teachers and school in a pretty despicable manner. Still in the Leave-camp but hated by all other protagonists in the EU referendum is Nigel Farrage and his pack of open racists, closet racists, mysogonists and common garden weirdos. So that's already a gang and a half, but nothing compared to:

- Trump and Putin and supporting the Leave campaign.

- the rest of Europe is pretty much at the point where they had enough of the UK's Primadonna behaviour for the last 20 years. They want the UK to stay as it would be a stronger union but if you have been called a "cesspit of stinking such and such" and have been compared to Hitler, I don't think that the UK will get any sort of favours from the EU whatsoever. Any sort of trade agreement will be on the EU's terms or there will be no agreement, so the entire "we don't want to get pushed around by the EU any longer" exercise will be self-defeating.

- I 100% agree with John Major when he let it rip last sunday: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36454782

- Someone mentioned Norway as an example. The thing is that Norway is a very specialised economy around shipping and oil. the UK on he other hand is a very diverse trade, services and goods-based econonmy. Besides, Norway are paying almost as much as the UK per capita to have access to the EU market and still need to realistically consider and many of the EU regulations in order to continue trading with the other 500 million customers in that market. Again, such a model would mean that a Leave vote would be self defeating.

- the UK and the US have nothing in common apart from a language.

So, rant over. Thanks for listening.

Oh, and I love the site.

Some very interesting points there Svennson - and probably the best 'Remain' discourse I've so far read.

I was very reluctant to join this debate as, in the past, I've been very sorely attacked on this site during political discussions - but it is very valuable to read the views of people from outside the UK.

I am still undecided - mainly because I do not trust politicians like Cameron, Johnson, Farrage and even Corbyn to present an impartial case for staying/leaving or even and honest one.

The thing that worries me most about leaving is that it will almost certainly mean having BJ as Prime Minister and, as well as thinking he is a jackass, he does not seem to have a 'leave plan' - so will the country be thrown into utter chaos within five years?

[Limehouse]

Sorry to mention the war, Svensson - it obviously pains you - but it's a good job you weren't around when it was happening. You'd have burst a blood vessel. All those Little Englanders, Little Scotlanders, Little Welsh and Little Irish going off to die so that Little Britain could govern herself - they must all have been racists, right? I'm surprised we're allowed to remember them once a year. I dare say the EU will put a stop to that in due course.

Populism? You mean, saying things that people like? Or giving people what they want? Smells too much like democracy. Can't have that.

The EU has been rumbled. I saw through it 40 years ago. Some poor devils never will. But I believe that there is a real chance that we can finally escape from this impudent fraud.

Those are very valid points Robert and I always respect your views greatly, but you cannot really blame the whole of the German nation for the actions of Hitler, his officers and the people who hung onto him because they had an agenda of their own.

Remember, Hitler did not just kill his enemies, he killed millions of his own and the people of Germany suffered greatly because of it.

[Limehouse]

What about the Russians?

Though, as an ex Pom, I have been watching the debate from afar and have come to the conclusion if I were still a Brit I'd vote to stay. However, I don't have to live there and make that decision, thank God!

I will say this though, decades ago Britain joined the EU without as much as a backward glance at countries like Australia and New Zealand that had stood beside them in two world wars. Britain joining destroyed Tasmania's apple trade and greatly harmed Oz and NZ meat and dairy exports. So if Britain does leave and it hurts Britain's exports, maybe it's karma. A long time coming, but still...

Excellent point Rosella - and having been in the fresh foods trade back in the 1970s I saw how superior, quality fruit from down under was replaced by rubbish from France. I also saw the almost total destruction of the Winward Islands banana trade whereby the UK's long-term agreement to buy almost the whole crop from the island year after year was over-ruled by the EU which demanded the banana market be opened up to imports from South America. Of course, the Winward Islands had very little other trade to fall back on and the people suffered greatly.

[Robert]

Hi Rosella

I too feel bad about Australia and New Zealand. I had no say in our joining the Common Market - that was done without asking the public what they thought about it. In the referendum that followed, in 1975, I voted to leave the Common Market, but the leavers were outvoted two to one.

Hi Julie

I'm not blaming the whole of the German nation for Hitler. One can argue back and forth about the precise level of complicity of the Germans in the crimes of the Nazis. But it's easy to slip into shorthand - "Germany," "the French," etc. I would only repeat that I believe that the ordinary citizens of the European countries are proud patriots. It's the elite that I loathe.

BTW, I don't think Svensson's views are quite from 'outside the UK' since he says he's lived in London for 24 years. Indeed I assume he's a British citizen, because he says he's going to vote in the referendum.

All, I am not forgetting the part played by our allies. The only reason I spoke about the British fighting in the war is because it's the British who are being accused of being isolationists, Little Englanders, racists etc.

[Limehouse]

Hi Rosella

I too feel bad about Australia and New Zealand. I had no say in our joining the Common Market - that was done without asking the public what they thought about it. In the referendum that followed, in 1975, I voted to leave the Common Market, but the leavers were outvoted two to one.

Hi Julie

I'm not blaming the whole of the German nation for Hitler. One can argue back and forth about the precise level of complicity of the Germans in the crimes of the Nazis. But it's easy to slip into shorthand - "Germany," "the French," etc. I would only repeat that I believe that the ordinary citizens of the European countries are proud patriots. It's the elite that I loathe.

BTW, I don't think Svensson's views are quite from 'outside the UK' since he says he's lived in London for 24 years. Indeed I assume he's a British citizen, because he says he's going to vote in the referendum.

All, I am not forgetting the part played by our allies. The only reason I spoke about the British fighting in the war is because it's the British who are being accused of being isolationists, Little Englanders, racists etc.

Hi Robert,

Agree totally - and you're spot on about the 'elites' who seem to want a federal Europe which I totally oppose.

In welcoming views from outside the Uk, I was referring to people like Rosella and others on this thread from the USA and other places who have expressed views.

What I think is spoiling the debate and clouding my decision about which way to vote is the way the way the debate has been high-jacked by extremists on both sides, but especially those on the extreme right.

[GUT]

Hi Robert,

Agree totally - and you're spot on about the 'elites' who seem to want a federal Europe which I totally oppose.

In welcoming views from outside the Uk, I was referring to people like Rosella and others on this thread from the USA and other places who have expressed views.

What I think is spoiling the debate and clouding my decision about which way to vote is the way the way the debate has been high-jacked by extremists on both sides, but especially those on the extreme right.

It seems pretty common that most debates are centred around the extremists.