RIP The Greatest of ALL TIME

[Abby Normal]

I have been enjoying this thread so much I didn't want to pop in early....everyone is making great points...but I have to say, speaking as a boxing historian (yes professionally at one point) Ali Vs.Tyson is the same outcome everytime....Ali Ali Ali......taking NOTHING away from Tyson, who in his prime was one of the hardest punchers ever (Shavers did hit harder and Ali took it) but what wins for Ali is is size, pure and simple.....as great as Tyson was....tall fighters always gave him problems....even in his prime....his skill and tenacity got him thru those fights for the most part....but big tall fighters gave him fits....James Bonecrusher Smith, Mitch Blood Green, even Donovan Razor Ruddock and none of those guys were as tall as Ali (don't believe the "tale of the tape", I have stood next to all these men (except Green), even Foreman was shorter) that,band Ali's speed and skill make the young Ali dominate Tyson, Ali mach II, would have wore Tyson down and got in his head, the way he did with Foreman....Tyson in his prime was AMAZING...but Ali was something different, something special....something magical....now the fight I wish I had a time machine to make happen would be Prime Tyson Vs. Prime Frazier....wouldn't last long...but damn it would be exciting....what lands first, the huge Tyson uppercut or the devastating Frazier left hook!!!!

Steadmund Brand

Agree. And great points about Ali's height.
If Ali could withstand foreman, he could do the same with Tyson, although Tyson would have had the proverbial punchers chance. But a small one. Ali would have to gotten on his bicycle sooner with Tyson, but he was smart enough to do it.
Which leads to the point of what a smart fighter he was and he would have gotten into Tyson's head before the fight ever started.
Great point again about his height and Ali had an amazing chin.
And stamina.

Ali beats tySon 9 times out of ten.

[GUT]

Where your points are great, I still disagree, I'll explain why, you are right, Tyson was almost like a caged animal with that anger and aggression....much like Roberto Duran was, and it took Leonard getting inside his head to beat him...Ali was every bit as smart as Leonard and could have done the same....remember No Mas was NOT Leonard beating up Duran physically...he beat him psychologically.....if need be Ali could have beat Tyson that way....I still don't think he would have had too...but he could have.
I actually asked Tyson once in a private conversation..that at his best, did he think there was a heavyweight he couldn't handle....he said....I don't know man, I was vicious, but I think Ali would have scared me....and Holyfield...he ain't human"....I was surprised by the Holyfield answer...but Mike is an odd duck, believe it or not, he is a very sweet and soft spoken and very respectful man one on one (I wouldn't say we are friends by any means, have met 3 times...and only spend more then 5 minutes together once)....he also told me he wished he could have fought Dempsey....he loved Dempsey footage, he said that he thought Dempsey was an animal, and he tried to be like him (told me he even cut his hair to be like Dempsey early in his career....) Personally, I think Tyson would have taken Dempsey in one round ...not that Jack wasn't great, but he was an animal and that would have left him open to that uppercut that made people go nite nite..
The late Jose Torres once told me that he thought Foreman would have beat Tyson...even if they met when it wad old fat George....not sure I agree, but he thought so.....Tyson was amazing, and brought boxing to sooooo many people who never watched a fight before, but he, even at his best, had one thing working against him....his height...worked against Frazier too, who beat Ali, so I see your argument...but I just can't see Tyson coming out on top...but that's the joy of these discussions, we'll never know...and makes it all the more fun to discuss.

Steadmund Brand

In many ways I thought old Fat George was better than young fit George, he had to fight a different fight.

Sportspeople in many sports have to get smarter as they get older or suffer injuries.

Those who follow cricket will remember Dennis Lillee, after his back op, he lost 10 mph or thereabouts off his fastest, but took way more wickets because he had to be smarter, I felt that similar happened with Forman, he still had a massive punch, but had to be smarter as his fitness let him down.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Steadmund

This one's for you. I thought about you when I heard about this new statue to Muhammad Ali erected in the Baltic Triangle neighborhood of Liverpool, England.



The bronze statue is named "The Greatest" and was created by artist Andrew Edwards and struck at the Castle Fine Arts Foundry. Liverpool Echo photograph.

Ali famously said, "you ain't no fool if you from Liverpool." I suspect he made that statement when he met the Beatles during one of their 1964 tours of the United States, when he was still known as Cassius Clay.

[Steadmund Brand]

Wow Chris, thank you for sharing this, what a beautiful statue and an amazing tribute to an amazing, if not polarizing man!!! I hadn't even heard of this, you would think Ring Magazine would have mentioned it....
Happiest of holidays to you my friend, and I hope we can see each other soon.

Steadmund Brand

[Pcdunn]

Great photos, both of them. Lovely statue, I didn't know Ali was so respected in Liverpool.

[ChrisGeorge]

Great photos, both of them. Lovely statue, I didn't know Ali was so respected in Liverpool.

Indeed, I would say that Ali was respected worldwide for what he achieved and what he stood for.

Chris

[GUT]

Indeed, I would say that Ali was respected worldwide for what he achieved and what he stood for.

Chris

I'd say more so in his later years than his early years.

[ChrisGeorge]

There's a good tribute to Muhammad Ali by Greg Howard in last Sunday's New York Times Magazine that is worth reading (the link leads to articles on other notables lost in 2016 such as David Bowie, Natalie Cole, Antonin Scalia, etc.):

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/21/magazine/the-lives-they-lived-muhammad-ali.html

Yes, GUT, I agree that the young Ali, known then as Cassius Clay, was a brash and braggardly young man who probably turned off a lot of people... quite different to the man seen in later life.

[Steadmund Brand]

When Ali came out to light the torch at the 1996 Olympic Games in Atlanta, even those who hated Ali saw him in a new light, it humanized him, showed the world that this man was mortal, giving people the world over a better understanding of how he changed the world...he was no longer a figure, he was flesh and blood, frail and weak, but still a symbol (and still pretty!), I remember my father, a combat veteran, calling me up crying saying "Did you see Ali.....I never realized till this moment what he meant to me"....my father no longer saw a loudmouth draft dodger, he saw simply put The Greatest, fighting one last fight for us all........
The world needs Ali now more than ever, and sadly he is no longer here, A voice for the voiceless, a hero not afraid to take a stand for what is right and willing to fall for his beliefs, a voice of reason in an unreasonable time.....I'll never say everything he did was just (what he did to Joe Frazier is unforgivable)but what he stood for was us all....no matter what color, or religion or economic status we were, he was the peoples champion, willing to fight for what he believed in.....and as 2016 fades out to a memory I hope a little of what Ali stood for is ingrained in all of us, and 2017 can be the start of a better world......
Rest in peace Champ....you will always be The Greatest

Steadmund Brand