Valerie Storie's 3 part story as published in 'Today' magazine, June 1962

[moste]

I am going to be really controversial here and possibly throw a spanner in the works, but an idea has been forming in my head for months now and since we are discussing the possible significance of the journey, I'm going to express it.

Let's wind back to long before the events of that night. VS and MG were berated at work for their liaison. VS was angry about this and, in discussion with a male colleague, said that if he took her out, she would stop seeing MG. They went out a few times and, one night, she took him via the field that would later feature in the events of that night and told him 'that's where Mike and I usually stop'.

Now, the week before the event, MG had been on holiday with his family. He had not seen VS. Apparently, (according to discussion on another A6 thread)MG and VS had not made love on the night of the event and the semen deposits 'attributed' to MG were several days old. How? He had been on holiday and had not seen VS.

Are we looking at an angry colleague who took them on a bizarre 'rally' that night?

Hi Julie. I did mention the other day,"I wonder how thorough the detectives were when interviewing all of the colleagues at Road Research Labs," alluding also to this chap from work, that Val took into her confidence, took, to her favourite spot in that special quiet world of hers, took, to where else one may wonder.
However, Valerie was supposedly in the corn field with Mike, on the Sunday the 20th, before the tragedy.(that's why the corn field would have been already flattened down , if the statement about where the journey began on the 22nd was in fact a red herring.) Of course we may still be looking at an angry colleague. Angry colleague though would probably be the understatement of the century if he was in fact responsible for the evenings carnage.

[Ed James]

I think Derrick on this thread told us that Valerie told Acott that Mike and her were intimate on the Sunday before the abduction.

Although Mike had taken Janet away he did leave his family away and come back in the week apparently to paint his new flat.

[Ed James]

Sorry sent by accident prematurely

The DNA results /interpretation were reviewed and revisited, as the result of a miscarriage of justice case, when the rape victim revealed several years later that she had been intimate that day with another lover.

atb

Ed

[Ed James]

Now, the week before the event, MG had been on holiday with his family. He had not seen VS. Apparently, (according to discussion on another A6 thread)MG and VS had not made love on the night of the event and the semen deposits 'attributed' to MG were several days old. How? He had been on holiday and had not seen VS.

Are we looking at an angry colleague who took them on a bizarre 'rally' that night?

Hi Limehouse
First , I welcome your speculation - a bit like brainstorming upon which others can positively build. I recognise that some may see this as disrespectful to Valerie who is undoubtedly a strong , determined and courageous woman. However , I don't think we should artificially close down debate.

It is documented that both Valerie and Mike G had other 'relationships' during their 4 year affair and I believe that Valerie had said she doubted that they would form a permanent relationship with Mike free from Janet.

But I can't build easily on the idea of colleague as abductor , since the location and discovery of the murder weapon and cartridges would seem to point away from this theory. But I do faintly recall previous suggestions (regarded by some as distasteful) on the A6 threads about the timing of and responsibility for the semen deposits. I am reminded of this by a recent you tube film I posted where a courting couple were separated by a gunman and raped the girl. The DNA results /interpretation where revisited and revised when the rape victim

[Pcdunn]

Hello, Limehouse:

Interesting. But that would mean she knew their captor, if it was "a male colleague", wouldn't it? So she deliberately picked someone else? (definitely controversial!)

I'll add to the controversial ideas, going the other way. VS seems in the articles to be very attached to MG, perhaps clinging. Did he really want to break up with her? Did he arrange for the frightening event to happen, so she'd want no more late night rallies? I'm thinking of him telling her at the gas station, "don't worry, everything will be all right", and basically going along with everything the abductor wanted.
Perhaps it was sort of planned-- except for the ending.

[Limehouse]

I am going to be really controversial here and possibly throw a spanner in the works, but an idea has been forming in my head for months now and since we are discussing the possible significance of the journey, I'm going to express it.

Let's wind back to long before the events of that night. VS and MG were berated at work for their liaison. VS was angry about this and, in discussion with a male colleague, said that if he took her out, she would stop seeing MG. They went out a few times and, one night, she took him via the field that would later feature in the events of that night and told him 'that's where Mike and I usually stop'.

Now, the week before the event, MG had been on holiday with his family. He had not seen VS. Apparently, (according to discussion on another A6 thread)MG and VS had not made love on the night of the event and the semen deposits 'attributed' to MG were several days old. How? He had been on holiday and had not seen VS.

Are we looking at an angry colleague who took them on a bizarre 'rally' that night?

[Sherlock Houses]

For the sake of argument , if it were a choice between Alphon or Hanratty as the gunman purely on the basis of the route and demeanour I would go for Alphon (even though he's not a fashionable perpetrator on the A6 murders (sic) site). Both knew Northolt, Harrow and Stanmore - but Hanratty was less likely to mistake St Albans for Watford. But I understand the link to Bedford in relation to Hanratty.

I've never come across anything, Ed, stating that Hanratty was familiar with the Northolt area.
Alphon, on the other hand, admitted to knowing his London very well. What I find rather revealing is that when the police issued their circulated description of Alphon a month after the murder it stated amongst other things that "he [Alphon] is known to frequent Streatham, Victoria, Putney, Kilburn, Northolt and Kingsbury."
Four of those six mentioned areas make very interesting reading and provide much food for thought....Victoria and Kilburn featuring prominently with regard to the 36A bus route, Kingsbury for obvious reasons and Northolt, according to Valerie Storie, was where the gunman wanted to head for as he knew of a café there where they could get something to eat.

[NickB]

There is a photo (by ‘Steve’) of the site of the Regent petrol station, now a Texaco one, at post 1883 on the original thread.

I don’t think the Shell station is there any more. I’ve been all the way round Kingsbury Circle on Google maps and cannot see it.

[Spitfire]

I've just dipped into Paul Foot's book to see what he says about the refueling of the Morris Minor on that fateful night. Foot seems to accept that the alliteratively named Harry Hirons did sell Gregsten two gallons of petrol in the early hours of 23 August 1961.

Foot does not disclose the garage that Hirons was working at, nor the brand of petrol which it sold. In fact Hirons' garage was a Shell garage and was situated on Kingsbury Circle, a good 15 mile (or so) drive from Heathrow. Foot does not go into much detail with regard to Hirons, save he does mention (on two occasions) his age as being eighty years.

Woffinden gives Hirons age as 64 years. He states that Miss Storie's recollection was that the garage sold Regent petrol, and was near Heathrow on the A4, shortly after the Colnbrook Bypass. As has been mentioned above, the garage was found but the attendant could not assist in identifying the murder car or its occupants.

[moste]

You raise some good points, Mr Moste. Quite rightly, never should we forget that Valerie Storie is still alive.

With regard to your suggestion that they drove to Deadmans Hill to meet someone, don't forget that Harry Hirons, the attendant at the Shell Garage on Kingsbury Circle, came forward to say that he remembered the Morris stopping there shortly after midnight on the morning of the murder, and that there were three people in it. He was shown the Morris at Scotland Yard and said he was confident it was the same car. He was one of the people who took part in the ID parade on which Alphon stood, but he did not pick out Alphon. At a later parade, Mr Hirons did not pick out Hanratty. Acott was confident - well, he would be, wouldn't he? - that Hirons had seen the murder car at his garage, but because he had failed to identify anyone when shown photos and a Photofit, he was not called as a witness. Also, the garage where he worked was not the garage that Valerie said they stopped at for petrol. So who was mistaken - Valerie or Mr Hirons? Easy to dismiss Mr Hirons, but he approached the police on his own initiative, so he must have been pretty confident that he had seen the murder car and its three occupants. Of course, he may have been totally mistaken, but the police seemed to take Mr Hirons very seriously, at least at first.

Graham

Well, good points, however, Mr.Hirons can't be ignored as one of those who may simply have wanted to get in on the deal!
Valerie, on the other hand though terribly traumatised, thwarted any effect Hirons may have had on the proceedings, by making the statement to Acott, and I quote: "Can I just say how I know it was a Regent garage? Acott:"Yes" Valerie: "Because as we drove into the garage, I looked at the pumps, and I thought, Oh Lord, its Regent petrol. Mike doesn't like Regent in his car".
As a sceptic of Valeries statements, I still find this statement pretty solid. The Regent garage is at Heathrow airport on the A4, (where there is now a Texaco.) It is unlikely that Valerie would have remembered this Regent station, at this location, especially since Mike would not have used it.
If I may help with how busy the garage was, in answer to S H. ponderings. According to Bob Woffinden. The petrol station, states a John Ward on duty on the night in question, 'served about 150 cars between 10 pm and midnight.' about 40% of customers would have asked for 2 gallons on fuel. He couldn't help the police with any descriptions.

[Sherlock Houses]

With regard to your suggestion that they drove to Deadmans Hill to meet someone, don't forget that Harry Hirons, the attendant at the Shell Garage on Kingsbury Circle, came forward to say that he remembered the Morris stopping there shortly after midnight on the morning of the murder, and that there were three people in it. He was shown the Morris at Scotland Yard and said he was confident it was the same car. He was one of the people who took part in the ID parade on which Alphon stood, but he did not pick out Alphon. At a later parade, Mr Hirons did not pick out Hanratty. Acott was confident - well, he would be, wouldn't he? - that Hirons had seen the murder car at his garage, but because he had failed to identify anyone when shown photos and a Photofit, he was not called as a witness. Also, the garage where he worked was not the garage that Valerie said they stopped at for petrol. So who was mistaken - Valerie or Mr Hirons? Easy to dismiss Mr Hirons, but he approached the police on his own initiative, so he must have been pretty confident that he had seen the murder car and its three occupants. Of course, he may have been totally mistaken, but the police seemed to take Mr Hirons very seriously, at least at first.

A very good post Graham. That's one of those 64,000 dollar questions isn't it, which one of the two witnesses were mistaken [unless of course both were mistaken and it was another garage] ? I certainly don't dismiss Harry Hirons's evidence. Unless he was lying he clearly remembered serving a Morris Minor with 3 occupants. I suppose a lot depends upon just how busy the garage he worked at was around midnight on a Tuesday evening and how many cars stopped for petrol. What time did that particular service station close ? There were far fewer cars on the roads back in 1961, how many people would be out and about at that time anyhow and how many would be driving a similar Morris Minor ?

[Sherlock Houses]

It can not be scrutinised and is not open to challenge, because to do so would be questioning miss Stories word on things, and even for the sake of arguing ,no one (well just about no one) is prepared to say 'what if she was lying? PS. As an aside,Norma, you mention in your book, 'The Illuminated sign flashed up before them, saying 'Dead mans Hill' was this a reference to the RAC box, with a sign on it, or some other sign? I only ask as I'm trying to get a feel for the arrival of the vehicle at this site. As you may know I believe this was a preconceived location, possibly an agreed rendezvous

You make some salient observations Moste in this post. Speaking only for myself and with some justification [which I will elaborate on in a future post] I find Valerie a most [no pun intended] unreliable witness. Louis Blom-Cooper, the author of the first book about the A6 murder in 1963, also considered her an unreliable witness, which might seem rather surprising given that back then he was a believer in Hanratty's guilt.

I too am of the belief that Deadman's Hill was a predestined location. Try putting yourself in Michael Gregsten's position for one moment.....what must he have been thinking when that sign for Deadman's Hill loomed in front of him ? Was that the reason he deliberately drove past it contrary to the gunman's instructions ? Did he have a real feeling of foreboding, believing that his number was finally up ?

[Ed James]

. Also, the garage where he worked was not the garage that Valerie said they stopped at for petrol. So who was mistaken - Valerie or Mr Hirons? Easy to dismiss Mr Hirons, but he approached the police on his own initiative, so he must have been pretty confident that he had seen the murder car and its three occupants. Of course, he may have been totally mistaken, but the police seemed to take Mr Hirons very seriously, at least at first.

Graham

Graham

Valerie was of course under huge stress following her horrendous ordeal which certainly would have understandably led to forgetting some things and being mistaken about others. However , I don't believe she was mistaken about the garage because she had good reason to recall that Mike G disliked the brand of petrol dispensed (Regent I believe). Of course, Acott had his own reasons for bringing Mr Hirons forward, despite Valerie's own account, since he wanted to strengthen in the jury's mind the link between Kingsbury and Hanratty.

In fact , the car's route passed as closely to Gregsten's home as Hanratty's , yet no one has seriously pursued the former angle , coincidence or not.

I believe the gunman was in control .Valerie's evidence was that even after short periods of relative silence , he gave firm instructions on directions.

Personally,I have a feeling that there is some significance to the car's route if not the destination. However, that slightly conflicts with my growing supposition that if the gunman was hired he was inadequately briefed and as a consequence this contributed to his bizarre behaviour.

For the sake of argument , if it were a choice between Alphon or Hanratty as the gunman purely on the basis of the route and demeanour I would go for Alphon (even though he's not a fashionable perpetrator on the A6 murders (sic) site). Both knew Northolt, Harrow and Stanmore - but Hanratty was less likely to mistake St Albans for Watford. But I understand the link to Bedford in relation to Hanratty.

My next post will be on the neglected Mrs Dalal (Alphon) thread touching on the issue you flagged regarding the financing of a hired gunman.
atb
Ed

[Graham]

You raise some good points, Mr Moste. Quite rightly, never should we forget that Valerie Storie is still alive.

With regard to your suggestion that they drove to Deadmans Hill to meet someone, don't forget that Harry Hirons, the attendant at the Shell Garage on Kingsbury Circle, came forward to say that he remembered the Morris stopping there shortly after midnight on the morning of the murder, and that there were three people in it. He was shown the Morris at Scotland Yard and said he was confident it was the same car. He was one of the people who took part in the ID parade on which Alphon stood, but he did not pick out Alphon. At a later parade, Mr Hirons did not pick out Hanratty. Acott was confident - well, he would be, wouldn't he? - that Hirons had seen the murder car at his garage, but because he had failed to identify anyone when shown photos and a Photofit, he was not called as a witness. Also, the garage where he worked was not the garage that Valerie said they stopped at for petrol. So who was mistaken - Valerie or Mr Hirons? Easy to dismiss Mr Hirons, but he approached the police on his own initiative, so he must have been pretty confident that he had seen the murder car and its three occupants. Of course, he may have been totally mistaken, but the police seemed to take Mr Hirons very seriously, at least at first.

Graham

[moste]

The journey and the route Gregsten took, may well have been of his own planning. The third person in the vehicle I suspect (and speculate) was known to either both of the lovers or at least to Gregsten. Otherwise, had it been an abduction, I really think evasive action of some kind would have been taken much earlier in the evening. Another possibility 'there was no third person in the car with them. They were on a mission to meet with a person or persons on dead mans hill, some plan that has never been revealed, that went horribly wrong. The concept of someone putting the 'frighteners on the couple, simply doesn't work. It is not possible to shoot someone with a .38 revolver, at close range twice, through the head, by accident.