The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[Sherlock Houses]

Valerie's description was "icy blue large saucer-like eyes". Nothing about them being pale or pale blue.

You're a great hair-splitter aren't you ? Look in any decent dictionary [Oxford English Reference Dictionary or Collins English Dictionary to name but two] and you will discover [if you didn't already know] that icy-blue equates to very pale blue.

[Sherlock Houses]

I then asked for a source for her actually 'saying so' (ie using the word 'pale'), not caring who might be able to provide one. But I figured it wouldn't be you because you went to all the trouble and sarcasm of finding and posting that Collins definition to argue that icy eyes equate to pale coloured eyes, when you could simply have quoted Valerie 'saying so' in her own words.

I can assure you I went to very little trouble or sarcasm [a bit hypocritical methinks coming as it does from the Queen of sarcasm] in googling a definition of icy-blue.

Remind us all please of where I stated that Valerie Storie described the eyes as pale blue.

[Sherlock Houses]

Yet Valerie describes blue eyes before she could know Hanratty's eye colour and apparently without having a clue what the man who raped her and left his O group semen on her underwear looked like?

Well she obviously saw enough of the gunman's face to state that his hair was straight [Hanratty's wasn't, Alphon's was], well-greased [Hanratty's wasn't, Alphon's was] and slightly receding at the temples [Hanratty's wasn't but Alphon's was]. Perhaps the smell of Brylcreem was overpowering. The finished identikit she helped to compile, which was strikingly like Alphon, was a very good likeness of the gunman which was why she sanctioned it for publication in the press and on TV.

[OneRound]

Well, as far as I understand it about this lobby thing it is you who are wrong.

I, for one, believe wholeheartedly that Hanratty had nothing whatsoever to do with the A6 murder. Neither do I believe that Alphon had any involvement.

I am perhaps, foolishly, basing my beliefs on all of the facts of the case, taken together (in the round if you like).

There is no evidence against Hanratty that cannot be plausibly explained by another scenario, especially the gun and room 24.

Hokey doke, Del.

I don't fully buy into it but understand your comment about there being 'no evidence against Hanratty that cannot be explained by another scenario'. That's certainly a factor in my not being satisfied his guilt was proved beyond reasonable doubt.

For reasons of openness it's only right though for me to say that, unlike you, my gut tells me Hanratty did it. For me, just too many separate items seeming to link him to the crime plus his inability to adequately explain where he was at the time.

Ok, that's my cards on the table. With apologies if you've covered this before but can you provide your views as far as you can tell from the facts as to how it all happened and why. That's a genuine request. Genuinely interested.

Cheers,

OneRound

[Derrick]

...can you provide your views as far as you can tell from the facts as to how it all happened and why...

OR

How what all happened? The stitch up of James Hanratty or the A6 murder?

Del

[Alfie]

You're a great hair-splitter aren't you ? Look in any decent dictionary [Oxford English Reference Dictionary or Collins English Dictionary to name but two] and you will discover [if you didn't already know] that icy-blue equates to very pale blue.

I'd say the meaning depends on whether or not a hyphen is included: icy-blue = pale blue; icy blue = blue eyes with an icy expression.

Woffinden and Miller use both forms, seemingly interchangably; Foot only uses "icy-blue"; Hawser, who was writing an official report and would therefore, I imagine, be more constrained than them by a need for absolute accuracy, records the statement made by Valerie to Whiffen on August 28 as being: "... he was clean shaven, has a very smooth pale face, with icy blue large saucer-like eyes."

No hyphen.

[OneRound]

OR

How what all happened? The stitch up of James Hanratty or the A6 murder?

Del

No need to be coy, Del. My question here was as wide and contains as many parts as you want it to. I don't know if you regard ''the stitch up of James Hanratty'' as something planned (at least in part) before the A6 murder or something that followed separately.

In certain respects, you and I are on similar ground in that we feel the case for Hanratty's guilt was not properly established at trial. Where we are poles apart is in your belief in Hanratty's innocence. That though doesn't stop me being interested in your opinions.

Best regards,

OneRound

[caz]

You're a great hair-splitter aren't you ? Look in any decent dictionary [Oxford English Reference Dictionary or Collins English Dictionary to name but two] and you will discover [if you didn't already know] that icy-blue equates to very pale blue.

Now icy-blue can only mean very pale blue? If that's what Valerie meant, where does she say 'very' pale blue eyes? Not that it's particularly relevant, since normal people don't tend to communicate using only strict dictionary definitions. She should have been asked for the exact shade of blue she meant when she was alive. And I think it was Hanratty defender Tony - quoted from an old post over on the 'Rebooted' thread - who maintained blue eyes can only ever be pale anyway, so I'm not sure how that would help matters!

Love,

Caz
X

[Sherlock Houses]

There is no evidence against Hanratty that cannot be plausibly explained by another scenario, especially the gun and room 24.

The anti-Hanratty mob have recently renamed us Hanrattyistas Derrick to distinguish us possibly from the Sandanistas in Nicaragua.

In effect what they would have us believe is that James Hanratty, after his dastardly deeds in the Morris Minor, then picked up a couple of empty cartridge cases and hurried back to the Vienna Hotel which he had vacated about 18 hours before the A6 murder. Being an accomplished housebreaker he then broke into room 24, where he had spent the night before the murder, and placed the said two empty cartridge cases on a chair in order to incriminate himself in the murder. They would soon be found and he wouldn't have to wait long before police came looking for him. How was the daft melt to know that no hotel staff would bother to clean the large bedroom for another 19 days ?? He had a back-up plan to get caught though, he wasn't that daft. He would hop on a nearby 36A bus to put the murder gun, bullets and personalised hankie underneath the back seat of the top deck. He'd told his great pal Dixie France a couple of weeks earlier that that was where he put unwanted paste from his burglaries. It would only be a day or so before they would be discovered and surely Dixie would put two and two together and with a little luck know it was him who put them there. Dixie being a well known police informer would then be able to point the police in his direction. He'd soon be in the cosy warmth of a welcoming police cell. Voila !!

[Graham]

I've been having a little lay-off from posting, just sitting back and reading with varying degrees of credulity what other folk care to place on the boards. Interesting stuff, by and large. But I have to say, Mr Shylock Houses, your last post is the biggest load of old guff I've read in a long time. I can only hope it was said with your tongue stuck firmly in your cheek.......

Graham

[Sherlock Houses]

And I think it was Hanratty defender Tony - quoted from an old post over on the 'Rebooted' thread - who maintained blue eyes can only ever be pale anyway, so I'm not sure how that would help matters!

Wrong yet again caz. Tony never maintained any such thing. Not to worry though as I feel almost sure you'll get something correct one of these days.

[Sherlock Houses]

I've been having a little lay-off from posting, just sitting back and reading with varying degrees of credulity what other folk care to place on the boards. Interesting stuff, by and large. But I have to say, Mr Shylock Houses, your last post is the biggest load of old guff I've read in a long time. I can only hope it was said with your tongue stuck firmly in your cheek.......

Graham

Surely the next to biggest load of old guff ? It's my experience that a sense of the Monty Python ridiculous is needed on this forum to combat the ridiculous premise that James Hanratty was the A6 murderer.

Mr. Shy, locked houses

[caz]

Remind us all please of where I stated that Valerie Storie described the eyes as pale blue.

You didn't. I never said you did. That was what I was asking for, as I thought I had made obvious, but obviously not obvious enough.
Here we go again:

I then asked for a source for her actually 'saying so' (ie using the word 'pale'), not caring who might be able to provide one. But I figured it wouldn't be you...

...Now - finally - Del has mentioned 'pale' and offers a source for Valerie saying so as late as January 24th. Better than nothing I suppose.

Your argument was - and is - that when Valerie used the word 'icy', in conjunction with 'large' and 'saucer-like', she could only have been referring to the shade and meant 'pale', rather than 'cold as ice', 'hard as ice', 'flinty', 'impersonal', 'psychopathic' - take your pick. I merely sought some confirmation from Valerie herself (not the dictionary definition of what shade icy-blue eyes would be) that you were guessing correctly and not merely presuming. What's so wrong with that? I thought your whole beef with the case against Hanratty was that too many presumptions were made without sufficient evidence to back them up.

Love,

Caz
X

[Graham]

Surely the next to biggest load of old guff ? It's my experience that a sense of the Monty Python ridiculous is needed on this forum to combat the ridiculous premise that James Hanratty was the A6 murderer.

Mr. Shy, locked houses

Ooooh, you're a proper caution you are, Mister Hearses!

Graham

[caz]

The anti-Hanratty mob have recently renamed us Hanrattyistas Derrick to distinguish us possibly from the Sandanistas in Nicaragua.

In effect what they would have us believe is that James Hanratty, after his dastardly deeds in the Morris Minor, then picked up a couple of empty cartridge cases and hurried back to the Vienna Hotel which he had vacated about 18 hours before the A6 murder. Being an accomplished housebreaker he then broke into room 24, where he had spent the night before the murder, and placed the said two empty cartridge cases on a chair in order to incriminate himself in the murder. They would soon be found and he wouldn't have to wait long before police came looking for him. How was the daft melt to know that no hotel staff would bother to clean the large bedroom for another 19 days ?? He had a back-up plan to get caught though, he wasn't that daft. He would hop on a nearby 36A bus to put the murder gun, bullets and personalised hankie underneath the back seat of the top deck. He'd told his great pal Dixie France a couple of weeks earlier that that was where he put unwanted paste from his burglaries. It would only be a day or so before they would be discovered and surely Dixie would put two and two together and with a little luck know it was him who put them there. Dixie being a well known police informer would then be able to point the police in his direction. He'd soon be in the cosy warmth of a welcoming police cell. Voila !!

Have you just had a long liquid lunch, SH?

I realise this wasn't meant to be your finest or most serious post on the subject, but when you described the hankie as 'personalised', what did you have in mind? There is no evidence that it could have been identified as Hanratty's in 1961 from the snot on it, so while he would not have incriminated himself by using it, neither would anyone else have incriminated him by taking it and planting it with the gun, so what would have been the point?

Love,

Caz
X