The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[NickB]

Charles France said that Hanratty showed him the Vienna hotel bill, not that he asked to see it. Charlotte France gave evidence that Hanratty also showed her the bill later that day.

I agree it is very plausible that whoever left the gun on the bus had intended to throw it in the Thames but then lost their nerve, fearing that they might be seen doing it.

[Natalie Severn]

Charles France said that Hanratty showed him the Vienna hotel bill, not that he asked to see it. Charlotte France gave evidence that Hanratty also showed her the bill later that day.

Hanratty however gave a different account of this incident to his father and mother when they visited him in Brixton prison before the trial.To quote Paul Foot:Hanratty was musing as to the reasons for his friends,the Frances,giving evidence for the prosecution,and he told his parents how ,when he went to see the Frances some three days after the murder,he told him casually that he had spent the previous Monday night at a Paddington hotel.Dixie France immediately showed great interest in this information.When Hanratty told him it cost £1.7s 6d
for bed and breakfast ,France expressed disbelief and would not leave him alone until he produced the receipt for the money with the billhead,Vienna Hotel, Sutherland Avenue.After seeing the dated receipt [21st.08.61] Mr France left the matter alone.Whichever version is right,Mr France had concrete evidence that Hanratty had stayed that night at the Vienna Hotel. page 138 Who Killed Hanratty?
Foot goes on to talk about the 'Back seat of a 36A bus' and how the conversation had arisen about it between Hanratty and France that France had volunteered information to the police about.Foot points out that all Hanratty had said about it was that he used to put the worthless or unwanted 'rubbish' from burglaries under the seat of a bus -rather on the floor- in case people would notice it.France however had Hanratty saying to him,"This is the only seat that lifts up,and it is a good hiding place".[Vol. V11,pp.3,4.] This latter damning evidence.Yet the devil is in the detail here.France's story was about a 'good hiding place' .Hanratty's was about getting rid of rubbish like paste jewellery and the like that people might see lying about and become suspicious about .Apparently when challenged by Sherrard ,France conceded that Hanratty's version was right.

Its sometimes worth pausing here and reminding onseself that Hanratty had only just renewed his contact with France after something like 7 years when Hanratty himself was just a child or teenager 'being taught the ropes' by a France who stole slate off roofs etc and had a fair number of convictions for this and that to his name .Now the situation was reversed and Hanratty was the one with recent 'experience' in burglary, France now the one being taught how to keep guard at burglaries etc or just contenting himself with selling on or fencing ,Hanratty's bits and pieces.So Hanratty was mentoring France now.

[Ed James]

after the murder,he told him casually that he had spent the previous Monday night at a Paddington hotel.Dixie France immediately showed great interest in this information.When Hanratty told him it cost £1.7s 6d
for bed and breakfast ,France expressed disbelief and would not leave him alone until he produced the receipt for the money with the billhead,Vienna Hotel, Sutherland Avenue.

Hi Nats

As ever , really interesting and detailed stuff. Would France have shown such keen interest if he and Hanratty had been engaged in a joint venture to put the frighteners on Gregsten? Or was it a feigned interest in front of Charlotte France?

What about the France/Hanratty relationship after the murder and the rape?
Did it continue largely as before ? Or, if in partnership with the gunman, did France show a tendency to keep Hanratty as a rapist away from his daughter or wife? I think not. I recognise that, contrary to Miller, Woffinden contends that Hanratty behaved exactly as he did before on his return to London.

But what can we glean from France's known behaviour?

Atb

Ed

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Ed James;353257]Hi Nats

As ever , really interesting and detailed stuff. Would France have shown such keen interest if he and Hanratty had been engaged in a joint venture to put the frighteners on Gregsten? Or was it a feigned interest in front of Charlotte France?

What about the France/Hanratty relationship after the murder and the rape?
Did it continue largely as before ? Or, if in partnership with the gunman, did France show a tendency to keep Hanratty as a rapist away from his daughter or wife? I think not. I recognise that, contrary to Miller, Woffinden contends that Hanratty behaved exactly as he did before on his return to London.

But what can we glean from France's known behaviour?

Atb
Ed[/]

Hi Ed,
Hanratty appeared to his girl friends to behave normally.He goes to Dry Cleaners [31st August date of his alleged sighting by Janet Gregsten] buys mother some flowers 1st September ,does a spot of burglary at Edgware on 2nd Sept.buys some clothes in Whitechapel and is seen there by William Ewer who followed him there .4th sept he flies to Dublin to get Irish Driving licence and returns 11th Sept .Took Carol France to Battersea fun fair.Later takes his cousin Gladys Deacon to Battersea Funfair in a sports car he has put a deposit on on 20th Sept .Meets Mary Meaden aged 22 on Sept 27th and takes her out in his new car and to see Harry Seacombe at London Palladium.Both then and for years afterwards she describes him as 'gentle and shy -he blushed easily.' and that he showed 'gentleness and impeccable behaviour towards her'. This description of his behaviour tallies with what others said about him at the time including Charles and Charlotte France .He was locked in a few passionate embraces with 16 year old Carol France only a few weeks before however but Carol too describes him as 'gentle and kind' despite getting up to some hanky panky with him on and off which Hanratty told his barrister that Charles France, her father would have strongly disapproved of.

[Dupplin Muir]

Another US case with some relevance to the A6 murder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8HS-9FQXQY

[Dupplin Muir]

Ed James wrote:

As ever , really interesting and detailed stuff. Would France have shown such keen interest if he and Hanratty had been engaged in a joint venture to put the frighteners on Gregsten? Or was it a feigned interest in front of Charlotte France?

More likely France wanted to know where JH had stayed so that he could plant the cartridge cases there.

[Graham]

Nats,

I wonder if Hanratty's girl-friends would have thought him 'kind and gentle' had they known that he visited prostitutes on a regular basis? By his own admission, two or three times a week sometimes!

Dupplin Muir,

Hanratty showed France The Vienna receipt by his own volition - he wasn't asked. Why should he do that, I wonder? Making conversation, perhaps? Showing off to the Frances that he could afford what he plainly thought to be an expensive hotel?

However, I can't actually rule out that the cartridges were planted at The Vienna, even though I don't think they were.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Yes Graham -it was indeed fashionable at the time until Profumo brought down his government the following year over his predilections for good time girls.Better though than the shock Mrs Cameron must have had waking up on Monday to the news about hubby's youthful adventures with a dead pig.

[Natalie Severn]

Dupplin Muir,

Hanratty showed France The Vienna receipt by his own volition - he wasn't asked.
Graham

Well that is not certain Graham but I agree Hanratty would have been capable of showing off like that. But as I said Paul Foot did go into this matter in detail and according to Mr and Mrs Hanratty , James Hanratty told them a different version from that of France who he said showed a great deal of interest in knowing about the Vienna Hotel and he told them it was France who asked to see the billhead for the night's stay-not the other way round .Anyway the one thing we know for certain is that France knew by 25th August where Hanratty had stayed overnight on 21st August.

[Graham]

Yes Graham -it was indeed fashionable at the time until Profumo brought down his government the following year over his predilections for good time girls.Better though than the shock Mrs Cameron must have had waking up on Monday to the news about hubby's youthful adventures with a dead pig.

This is a rather pointless post, Nats. But possibly one I should have expected from someone of your 'political' persuasion. Keep to the facts.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

This is a rather pointless post, Nats. But possibly one I should have expected from someone of your 'political' persuasion. Keep to the facts.

Graham

Graham I am pointing out something quite relevant actually [and btw I don't mean about that Daily Mail headline about Cameron having sexual relations with a pig either]. I mean it in the context of that time ---that was as common in Soho-it was common practice in Clivedon,common practice among the highest in the land like Profumo and his Westminster pals---no big deal at that time amongst those people .

[Ed James]

Hi DM
A very interesting film showing the frequent flaws with eyewitness testimony.

Here is a very informative film highlighting the weakness of eyewitness testimony even where the victim has made a very determined effort to memorise the perpetrator's features.

Other related films relating to Elizabeth Loftus, the world's leading academic on eyewitness testimony, show that memory is not like a videotape and is open to suggestion and , very interestingly, can be confirmed eternally by police telling an individual after an ID parade 'well done , you have done a great job'.

Videos of eyewitness testimony
See Eyewitness Testimony Part 1
Atb
Ed

[Dupplin Muir]

Thanks Ed!

DM

[Ed James]

Hi DM
A very interesting film showing the frequent flaws with eyewitness testimony.

Here is a very informative film highlighting the weakness of eyewitness testimony even where the victim has made a very determined effort to memorise the perpetrator's features.

Other related films relating to Elizabeth Loftus, the world's leading academic on eyewitness testimony, show that memory is not like a videotape and is open to suggestion and , very interestingly, can be confirmed eternally by police telling an individual after an ID parade 'well done , you have done a great job'.

Videos of eyewitness testimony
See Eyewitness Testimony Part 1

DM

I should make clear that this applies to all eyewitness evidence not just that of a victim , though the shock experienced by victims can be an exacerbating factor.

Ed

[Ed James]

Its sometimes worth pausing here and reminding onseself that Hanratty had only just renewed his contact with France after something like 7 years when Hanratty himself was just a child or teenager 'being taught the ropes' by a France who stole slate off roofs etc and had a fair number of convictions for this and that to his name .Now the situation was reversed and Hanratty was the one with recent 'experience' in burglary, France now the one being taught how to keep guard at burglaries etc or just contenting himself with selling on or fencing ,Hanratty's bits and pieces.So Hanratty was mentoring France now.

Hi Nats

Sorry for a delayed response on this point. I think what you say above is important to my question( not really answered ) : what was France doing after the murder & rape and what was the behaviour like towards Hanratty?

Wasn't France heavily reliant on hand outs from Hanratty which reflects the changed situation you identify?

If France had 'contracted ' Hanratty to undertake the hi- jacking wouldn't he have developed some greater distance from the rapist and kept him away from his family. Yet such distancing is not readily apparent. Didn't for example France have a drive of Hanratty's car.

Incidentally, where did Charlotte France think Hanratty was getting his money? She is generally portrayed as not being aware of her husband's and Hanratty's source of revenue. Yet she would have seen Hanratty's Liverpool telegram referring to back for business. What business ?


If there was no 'contract' between France and Hanratty , when did France decide Hanratty was involved in the A6 murder?

Atb

Ed