The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[Sherlock Houses]

However, with apologies if I'm being particularly thick, I'm unsure where you are trying to go with it.

The discerning reader will know where I'm trying to go with this without it being spelled out to them. I'm not a grate spella enyhow. And I'm definitely not going to the untrustworthy plod with it.

[moste]

[QUOTE=Sherlock

So this being the case ,it couldn't possibly have been a coincidence that Alphon shows up out of the blue ,at a particular restraurant in south Kensington.It actually appears that the two Express men were attempting to confront Mrs.Dalal with her attacker, surely not!

[moste]

[QUOTE=moste;398461][QUOTE=Sherlock

So this being the case ,it couldn't possibly have been a coincidence that Alphon shows up out of the blue ,at a particular restraurant in south Kensington.It actually appears that the two Express men were attempting to confront Mrs.Dalal with her attacker, surely not![/QUOTE]


Another thought.
Since we had a specialist police officer with the Identikit equipment over at Valerie's bedside , producing a very strong likeness of Alphon.
How about if we could have had the same chap high tail over to Mrs. Dalal's place to work his magic there?
What if he had, and the two identikit pictures had been virtually the same?

[OneRound]

The discerning reader will know where I'm trying to go with this without it being spelled out to them. I'm not a grate spella enyhow. And I'm definitely not going to the untrustworthy plod with it.

Hi Sherlock - obviously up to you and for discerning readers to make a call but I'm struggling to see this incident as anything other than a separate sideshow, albeit a distressing one for the lady concerned.

Does it advance the case for the innocence of James Hanratty?

Regards,

OneRound

[Sherlock Houses]

[QUOTE=moste;398467]

Another thought.
Since we had a specialist police officer with the Identikit equipment over at Valerie's bedside , producing a very strong likeness of Alphon.
How about if we could have had the same chap high tail over to Mrs. Dalal's place to work his magic there?
What if he had, and the two identikit pictures had been virtually the same?

A very good question, Moste.

Apparently [to use one of the favourite words of the 2002 Court of Appeal judgment] Det-Sgt Mackle visited Mrs Dalal in hospital on September 8th and with her help compiled an Identikit photo of her violent assailant and potential rapist. This is mentioned on page 55 of the totally unreliable book written by Robert Woffinden.
Unfortunately, this important identikit was never published in any newspapers so the general public has no idea what her assailant looked like.
I wouldn't be surprised if the identikit photo conveniently got mislaid [or destroyed] just like John Kerr's missing census form.

[Graham]

Reference that sometimes erudite book by Mr Robert Woffinden, Sherlock Houses (and others) seem to have somehow missed that on Page 48 we have:

"I don't know anybody who was ever identified from a photofit", commented Brian Hilliard, former editor of the Police Review. "The technique came in in a blaze of technological glory, and about a year later everyone realised it wasn't of any real assistance"

I mentioned this in a post a short time ago, but amazingly it seems to have been missed just as it has been by readers of Woffinden's book, so I repeat it here in full.

Graham

[Sherlock Houses]

Judge for yourselves

Reference that sometimes erudite book by Mr Robert Woffinden, Sherlock Houses (and others) seem to have somehow missed that on Page 48 we have:

"I don't know anybody who was ever identified from a photofit", commented Brian Hilliard, former editor of the Police Review. "The technique came in in a blaze of technological glory, and about a year later everyone realised it wasn't of any real assistance"

I mentioned this in a post a short time ago, but amazingly it seems to have been missed just as it has been by readers of Woffinden's book, so I repeat it here in full.

Graham

The Identikit system was first used in the UK about 5 months before the A6 murder and was instrumental in identifying the murderer of Elsie Batten.....

https://web.archive.org/web/20090109203929/http://www.met.police.uk/history/bush.htm

The last paragraph in that Metropolitan Police Service article speaks for itself I would suggest................

"This case is of particular interest because the arrest of the murderer was achieved as a direct result of the use of an American system, known familiarly as " Identikit ", for building up the facial likeness of a suspect. This was the first time this equipment had ever been used in this country, but so skilfully was it operated and so effective was the resultant 'picture', that a ' C' Division Police Constable , P.C. 341 ' E ' Cole was able to recognise the wanted man Bush and detain him......"

[Graham]

Will you be lettting Robert Woffinden know about the quote on Page 48 of his book, or shall I? He must have accepted what Mr Hilliard wrote, or he wouldn't have included it in his book. So his fallibility is once more called into question........

The inference gained from the case that you highlight is that the system was so skilfully operated. Maybe Mackie wasn't too good with it, because to this day I can see little resemblance to either Hanratty or Alphon in the photofits he produced. Any system that requires individual skill or interpretation on the part of the operator is always going to be a bit iffy.

Graham

[Derrick]

...Any system that requires individual skill or interpretation on the part of the operator is always going to be a bit iffy...

Yeah, but there two flaws in your argument here Graham;

Firstly, Storie signed the finished identikit as being a very good likeness of her assailant. This very good likeness which bears no resemblance whatsoever to James Hanratty.

And secondly, the DNA evidence given in 2002 depended largely on the individual skill or interpretation on the part of the operator.

Del

[moste]

Will you be lettting Robert Woffinden know about the quote on Page 48 of his book, or shall I? He must have accepted what Mr Hilliard wrote, or he wouldn't have included it in his book. So his fallibility is once more called into question........

The inference gained from the case that you highlight is that the system was so skilfully operated. Maybe Mackie wasn't too good with it, because to this day I can see little resemblance to either Hanratty or Alphon in the photofits he produced. Any system that requires individual skill or interpretation on the part of the operator is always going to be a bit iffy.

Graham

You can't see a resemblance of the left hand identikit picture as acclaimed by Storie, to Peter Alphon? your having us on Graham!
And that last sentence, I cant believe you said that!

[Sherlock Houses]

I can only find one reference to Mrs Dorothy Morrell in Foot's book (1988 ed) at page 51.

Maybe you need to start reading whole chapters in future SF instead of a quick look at the Index. There's at least one more reference to Dorothy in Paul's book, just 2 short pages later. If you'd read just a couple of pages further into that chapter you might have come across it.

[OneRound]

And here's silly me thinking this thread was about the September 7th attack on Mrs Dalal. I must pay more attention.

As you said, Sherlock. Appears to contradict your most recent post which in any case isn't exactly overwhelming proof of James Hanratty's innocence.

OneRound

[Sherlock Houses]

Hey now Or, it wasn't me who was responsible for this thread being completely sidetracked from it's original theme. The vast majority of the posts on this thread belong to the Rebooted thread.

[Sherlock Houses]

The Appeal, Section 131, says on this day she described the eyes as blue to Inspector Mackle who was in charge of constructing the identikit image.

Aha, the infamous 2002 appeal/judgment.

The same judgment that lied when it stated [among other erroneous things] that Peter Alphon was interviewed by police on September 7th 1961.
He definitely wasn't questioned by police on that date.

[NickB]

I agree that Alphon was not interviewed on 7-Sep. But the Lewis report contains Mackle’s notes where he has written down blue eyes, so I think the Appeal were right to say Valerie told Mackle about the blue eyes on 26-Aug. I also think Woffinden was right to conclude that the ‘brown eyes’ description “was simply a mistake by Bedfordshire police.”