The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[cobalt]

I don’t think it is surprising that a suspicious man was not seen in the vicinity of Marsh Lane that evening if the hold-up was opportunistic – for example, Hanratty trying out his new gun. He always had the option to postpone the hold up for another time and occasion.

Opportunistic? The gunman was packing more cannon than the Woolwich Arsenal. He was on a mission of some sort, prepared for a shoot out Cagney style. He could not have been traipsing country roads with all that lot stuffed in his suit pockets.

Postpone the Hold Up? This is a timely reminder of the threadbare motivation presented by the prosecution. This crime was no Hold Up, a crime which would have been over and done with in a matter of minutes. It was something else.

[Spitfire]

He took it back to where it came from, i.e., Charles France. Who, scared shitless no doubt, did what I think I'd have done and got rid of the gun in a way that lifted suspicion from himself and directly onto the man who France now suspected of being the A6 killer, i.e., James Hanratty.

I think that the age of Charles France (and the fact that he was balding and in the habit of wearing spectacles) would have precluded him from being a considered a suspect in the murder.

If he had supplied the gun to Hanratty, then disposing of it in a way that brought the crime back to Hanratty could only implicate him as an accessory before and after the crime.

[Spitfire]

I don’t think it is surprising that a suspicious man was not seen in the vicinity of Marsh Lane that evening if the hold-up was opportunistic – for example, Hanratty trying out his new gun. He always had the option to postpone the hold up for another time and occasion. Only if he was confident he had not been seen would he have proceeded.

Hanratty as an experienced, if inept, burglar would have appreciated the danger to his liberty if apprehended going equipped for theft, and would undoubtedly have appreciated the consequences of being arrested in possession of a firearm and ammunition. It is quite possible that he thought that holding the couple up in their Morris Minor was a better bet than wandering around the area after dark and being picked up by the police.

[NickB]

My apologies for being unclear. When I said ‘for example, Hanratty trying out his new gun’ I meant using it for the first time in a hold-up – not shooting practice.

In the Today articles Valerie refers to receiving letters from strangers who mention the affair, so it must have been widely known by then. She also reiterates that at the point of abduction they were planning the car rally.

Mike and I had been asked to help plan a car rally for the motor club at work. We were talking about this when we drove into that deserted field that night when everything exploded.

It all began so ordinarily. Not a night for the wild, the unexpected, the terrible. Certainly not a night for any sort of anguish.

We sat in our car – a Morris Minor – and we were finalizing plans for the next motor rally, a rather ambitious eighty-mile route.

[Graham]

I think that the age of Charles France (and the fact that he was balding and in the habit of wearing spectacles) would have precluded him from being a considered a suspect in the murder.

As you say in your next paragraph, I would suggest that France's main fear was not to be accused of the crime itself, but as an accessory, in which case he would probably be looking at 20+ years if tried and found guilty. I can't (obviously) state with any authority that France was the man who placed the gun on the bus, but someone did; and France knew, and Hanratty never denied it, that the back seat was Hanratty's favoured place of disposal. If it was Hanratty himself who put the gun under the seat, then given what he had told France he was almost signing his own death warrant.

Graham

[Graham]

Regarding lack of sighting in Marsh Lane of anyone resembling Hanratty, I think this is not really relevant. I'm sure the local householders had much better things to do than look out for, and note the appearance, of passers-by. When I walked the area, it wasn't exactly Oxford Street in terms of pedestrians, but there were people out and about on foot.

Lord Russell of Liverpool in his book Deadman's Hill: Was Hanratty Guilty? notes that there had been attempts at house-breaking in the houses on and near Marsh Lane. Not that he was specifically pointing the finger at Hanratty, but perhaps Jim had indeed tried his luck there in the recent past. Also, Valerie said that when the gunman forced his way into the car, one of her first impressions was that 'he was a burglar'. It's known that most of his jobs were done in up-market outlying areas of London, so it's not out of the question that he'd done jobs in the remoter parts of the Slough/Maidenhead area.

Graham

[uncle_adolph]

Also, Valerie said that when the gunman forced his way into the car, one of her first impressions was that 'he was a burglar'.

Graham

You'll have to remind me.....was this before or after Valerie knew that the main suspect was a housebreaker?

[Graham]

You'll have to remind me.....was this before or after Valerie knew that the main suspect was a housebreaker?

Before. It wasn't until the cartridge-cases were found at The Vienna on 11 September that the police were aware of Ryan later identified as Hanratty and that he had 'form'. Valerie's statement was made during her initial questioning in the days following the crime. Even then there was no sound reason for the police to tell her much about Hanratty anyway.

When do you think she learned that Hanratty had form as a housebreaker?

Graham

[Spitfire]

You'll have to remind me.....was this before or after Valerie knew that the main suspect was a housebreaker?

According to Woffinden (page 4 of Pan 1999 ed) Valerie Storie said in her fourth statement made on 28th August 1961,

"I thought he was a burglar and he was waiting for someone."

Hanratty was not then a suspect.

[moste]

Regarding lack of sighting in Marsh Lane of anyone resembling Hanratty, I think this is not really relevant. I'm sure the local householders had much better things to do than look out for, and note the appearance, of passers-by. When I walked the area, it wasn't exactly Oxford Street in terms of pedestrians, but there were people out and about on foot.

Lord Russell of Liverpool in his book Deadman's Hill: Was Hanratty Guilty? notes that there had been attempts at house-breaking in the houses on and near Marsh Lane. Not that he was specifically pointing the finger at Hanratty, but perhaps Jim had indeed tried his luck there in the recent past. Also, Valerie said that when the gunman forced his way into the car, one of her first impressions was that 'he was a burglar'. It's known that most of his jobs were done in up-market outlying areas of London, so it's not out of the question that he'd done jobs in the remoter parts of the Slough/Maidenhead area.

Graham

I think she thought when they heard the tap on the car window, it was a farmer or someone coming to complain about them being parked there. Then when realising it was a bad person with a gun, she quickly noted he was smartly dressed in a dark suit, why would she have the impression it was a burglar? that's weird.
The idea that it was Hanratty out to do some house breaking in the Marsh Lane farm fields area is ridiculous. Planning a night of burglary by someone who earns his living at it, isn't something you just head off and do! A number of considerations are necessary, the ease of escape from the targeted area, i.e., bus service, tube service,(in London)or own vehicle in the next street, I mentioned before, casing the dwelling beforehand is another issue, that's why I speculated some time back on Alphon with his peddling almanacs would have been the perfect ruse for this purpose.
No, I believe if Jim was going to expand his horizons it would be more likely that he would be thinking more along the lines of Chesham or Amersham (end of the line tube locales)more that line of country than country lanes off the beaten track. Those reported burglary's on Marsh road were more than likely local Taplow kids, swiping bikes out of peoples driveways, not bona fida burglars per say.

[cobalt]

The words burglary and robbery are easily mixed up, and a lawyer could spend hours debating the semantics.

In essence, James Hanratty was a burglar, albeit not a very successful one as he had a track record of getting caught. He broke into houses when people were not there and filched what he could. He also nicked cars when the owners had left them parked in vulnerable areas. He was not a good member of society.

But a robber is a very different proposition. A robber uses force or intimidation to obtain his booty, and that would have been breaking new ground for Hanratty. Even the prosecution was unable to dig up anything in his background to suggest that 'the burglary game is all washed up' and that he had to move up a level to armed robbery.

I suspect a burglar no more drifts into robbery than a flasher becomes a rapist. (Remember Colin Stagg and the Rachel Nickell murder). I have no data to support this contention, but then neither did Acott nor Oxford have any for theirs.

[Spitfire]

The words burglary and robbery are easily mixed up, and a lawyer could spend hours debating the semantics.

In essence, James Hanratty was a burglar, albeit not a very successful one as he had a track record of getting caught. He broke into houses when people were not there and filched what he could. He also nicked cars when the owners had left them parked in vulnerable areas. He was not a good member of society.

But a robber is a very different proposition. A robber uses force or intimidation to obtain his booty, and that would have been breaking new ground for Hanratty. Even the prosecution was unable to dig up anything in his background to suggest that 'the burglary game is all washed up' and that he had to move up a level to armed robbery.

I suspect a burglar no more drifts into robbery than a flasher becomes a rapist. (Remember Colin Stagg and the Rachel Nickell murder). I have no data to support this contention, but then neither did Acott nor Oxford have any for theirs.

So what you're saying is that it is inconceivable that Hanratty should move up a division from burglar to robber, but very likely that Alphon should graduate from his humble position of greyhound punter and almanac seller to armed robber?

[Natalie Severn]

Lord Russell of Liverpool in his book Deadman's Hill: Was Hanratty Guilty? notes that there had been attempts at house-breaking in the houses on and near Marsh Lane. Not that he was specifically pointing the finger at Hanratty, but perhaps Jim had indeed tried his luck there in the recent past. Also, Valerie said that when the gunman forced his way into the car, one of her first impressions was that 'he was a burglar'. It's known that most of his jobs were done in up-market outlying areas of London, so it's not out of the question that he'd done jobs in the remoter parts of the Slough/Maidenhead area.

Graham

Lord Russell may be right but we know Hanratty's movements from when he quitted doing window cleaning with his Dad in July.They are pretty well documented even including where and when he obtained his employment card in Cardiff South Wales.Apart from a few burglaries around the Stanmore Area that the police became aware of and traced his fingerprints he spent most of his time chasing girls and going to the Rehearsal Club .There is no mention by anyone at any time of him going to Maidenhead,Slough or anywhere near them. He went to the racing in Hendon,Wembley -mostly North London. But Alphon knew Slough Stadium in the West and its dog tracks very well and was well known there.He apparently knew the Bear Inn in Maidenhead too which is not far from where Gregsten had acquired his flat.

[Natalie Severn]

So what you're saying is that it is inconceivable that Hanratty should move up a division from burglar to robber, but very likely that Alphon should graduate from his humble position of greyhound punter and almanac seller to armed robber?

Alphon gripped Mrs Hanratty around the throat as she intervened to stop Alphon making a vicious attack on Jean Justice and the police were called.There was also an incident in a hotel where he had to be thrown out for disturbing the peace.

[NickB]

When Alphon said he backed 'Mentals only hope' at Slough the dog was quite well known.

‘Mentals only hope’ made headlines in March 1961 when he failed to stop at the end of a race at Wimbledon. He kept going until sheer exhaustion brought him to a halt after half an hour.

In May 1961 betting shops were legalised and greyhound racing started a long decline. There were 25 tracks in London, now Wimbledon is the only one remaining.