The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[Sherlock Houses]

...... that Alphon was not the A6 Murderer (which is what this thread is about).

And here's silly me thinking this thread was about the September 7th attack on Mrs Dalal. I must pay more attention.

[Sherlock Houses]

With regard to the Free Library and Joan Blackstone and Reggie Fellows, I've got a vague memory that on the pre-crash forum someone did post that she knew who the killer really was. Anyone else recall this, or am I dreaming? I did a Forum search for 'Joan Blackstone', but nowt. The search goes back only to 2008, though.

Perhaps you're thinking of Mrs Jean Rouch, Graham, who contacted the defence team on the first day [November 22nd] of the Committal Hearings to say that she knew who the killer was and that the killer knew Alphon.

[Spitfire]

And here's silly me thinking this thread was about the September 7th attack on Mrs Dalal. I must pay more attention.

Your argument in the original post was that Alphon attacked the Swedish housewife (a Freudian slip perhaps) Mrs Dalal and that the attack on her was strikingly similar to the A6 murder, and therefore Alphod did the A6 murder.

[Natalie Severn]

My opinion and the opinion of the 1962 Bedford jury, the 1962 Court of Criminal Appeal, the 2002 Court of Criminal Appeal and the opinion of Mike Sherrard that the wrong man was not hanged and all backed up by the statement of Mike Mansfield QC (Hanratty's brief) that Alphon was not the A6 Murderer (which is what this thread is about).

Lots of problems with this Spitfire.

1] Nobody on this entire earth either then or now ever claimed to have seen Hanratty anywhere near Dorney Reach or Slough .Very ,very strange indeed because whatever has been said so far , Taplow Station and even Slough at that time in August would have had very very few people getting off the train at that point and all stations had ticket collectors and no-- people in 1961 were not that formal in their dress in the countryside and a man with a smart suit and tie would have been noticed.[Btw Graham I have a pic of Mr Larman in a short sleeved shirt in 1961 looking perfectly ok.My father too-a very well dressed man usually but many photos of him in an airtex sports shirt and light slacks!
Moreover
There were actually two identikits of the murderer-one drawn up under Valerie Storie's direction towards a man with
dark eyesand swept back hair, slightly receding hair line long oval face ,thin nose.
Hanratty had none of this.
Importantly Graham is quite wrong to say Hanratty had not been spotted because the place was so deserted around Marsh Lane / no pictures had been released etc .This is because
there had been sightings of a man on August 22nd --and at other times too -who looked identical to Alphon-feature by feature by a] Mr Foggerty Waul who told police about him and was ignored at the time .Everybody in Taplow was being told about what had happened and issued with descriptions of the murderer for goodness sake . And b] there were other sightings in Marsh Lane reported to the police by the Cobbs and their next door neighbour who had seen a man with a dark suit looking like Valerie's identikit pic -dark eyes ,swept back hair ,thin nose ,oval jaw etc
These people were astounded that their sightings [like Mr Dutton's Police Statement of 9th Feb 1962]were all three of them -completely ignored by police !.
If you also remember Valerie positively identified first time a man of heavy build and mousy hair with dark eyes who stood 5ft 9ins tall-same height as Alphon .His name was Michael Clark and he was not the murderer .

Sherrard if you read him in his biography of 2009 suspected foul play from the very start when the trial was mysteriously moved from the Old Bailey to Bedford when jurors had directed it to the Old Bailey.From that moment on Michael Sherrard QC smelt a rat and says so in his 2009 autobiography. So---Sherrard appears to have remained convinced Hanratty was innocent but felt he had to bow to the 2002 LCN DNA findings as the three judges had directed... but he clearly remained very suspicious indeed about the whole process and asks why Valerie's knickers had been kept for 42 years 'on ice' in a police lab -for what purpose ? you can only conclude between the lines and what he is saying in this book that he thinks the knickers had been deliberately tampered with* ---like Hanratty's recorded words were tampered on the night of his arrest.
* so now ask yourself-who was in a position to tamper with what was on those knickers in that police lab? Think about it.The hanky is just not on.Its a complete no no it was in a policeman's drawer for 40 or so years for crying out loud and could have come from Hanratty's cell just prior to his execution more likely -as some weirdo keepsake ......or from anywhere else during his incarceration in Bedford Jail.It proves nothing whatsoever.

[Graham]

Perhaps you're thinking of Mrs Jean Rouch, Graham, who contacted the defence team on the first day [November 22nd] of the Committal Hearings to say that she knew who the killer was and that the killer knew Alphon.

Yes, SH, that's the name - goes back a bit. Whatever happened to her and her 'evidence', one asks? Same name as a renowned French make of cinema verite films. If you think about it, the A6 Case would have made a fabulous film noir, but too late now, I think.

Graham

[Ed James]

Perhaps you're thinking of Mrs Jean Rouch, Graham, who contacted the defence team on the first day [November 22nd] of the Committal Hearings to say that she knew who the killer was and that the killer knew Alphon.

Hi Sherlock /Graham
I recall in my extensive reading of old posts that someone using, I think , the call sign 'Blue Moon' said that she had personal knowledge of the France family and that Mrs France's brother , John Russell, was linked to the A6 murder. I believe that no subsequent postings were made by Blue Moon to indicate how she formed that view.

Interestingly, Paul Foot recorded that , during later researches, he spent an uncomfortable evening at the France flat with Mrs France and her two brothers.

It would be interesting to know more about John Russell.

regards

Ed

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Sherlock /Graham
I recall in my extensive reading of old posts that someone using, I think , the call sign 'Blue Moon' said that she had personal knowledge of the France family and that Mrs France's brother , John Russell, was linked to the A6 murder.

Ed

Hi Ed-just a quick comment .I have no idea whether John Russell is a person we need to focus on or not but what I want to know is who drove the gunman to Dorney Reach/Marsh Lane -if Dorney Reach was where the ambush was.It is just so unlikely- if you think about it, that he could have arrived by train in a smart suit and tie to a location in the heart of the country with a bulky bag of ammunition on his knee or in his hand from say Paddington or wherever and to have been completely overlooked either on the train, or when he gave his ticket in or when he walked down the lanes to cross the field to the car . The murder hunt had started within days around the area so people's mind's would have been exercised thinking back-like the Cobbs were who had seen somebody looking a bit like the gunman was described .So the most likely scenario is that he was driven to near the Marsh Lane area or had thumbed a lift there . So who drove him there and why?

[Ed James]

I have expressed here before an opinion that the Liverpool/Rhyl aspect of this case is a Dead End that has been exhausted, and that more attention should be focused on the actual locus of the crime. I am happy to have been corrected.

Hi Cobalt

Your posts on Balmer were excellent - well researched, well written and add to our understanding - despite others' views .

I share your view that more attention should be given to the locus of the crime, and the circumstances. I say this as someone unconvinced by the various motives assigned to Hanratty but open minded enough to recognise that there are many telling points made by those who firmly believe Hanratty to be guilty.

You - and Norma B = have helped me think about Hanratty's (purported) journey to Liverpool. We know that Hanratty told the girl at the club and the Frances that he was going to Liverpool (and some have suggested as a consequence that the crime was premeditated - although this does not fit with the motives assigned to Hanratty). Hanratty himself indicated that he went to sell stolen goods to his ex prison contacts. I think that while that was an objective , the overriding motivation was to show his contacts how well he was doing (flash suit, plenty of cash, lording it around Soho, about to buy a sports car, and an array of stolen stuff). The bloke who was frequently looked down upon and laughed at wanted to earn his peer's respect.

That angle could explain why, according to Miller, Hanratty simply didn't return to the Liverpool dealer if he was truly in Liver[pool.

Of course, if Hanratty had this motivation why would he go to Rhyl on a whim? The answer might be that Hanratty was highly impulsive and that he did make contact with his ex con 'mates' on return from Rhyl . And this contact led him to the fatally misconceived view that they would stand an alibi for him.

ATB

Ed

[Ed James]

Hi Ed-just a quick comment .I have no idea whether John Russell is a person we need to focus on or not but what I want to know is who drove the gunman to Dorney Reach/Marsh Lane -if Dorney Reach was where the ambush was.It is just so unlikely- if you think about it, that he could have arrived by train in a smart suit and tie to a location in the heart of the country with a bulky bag of ammunition on his knee or in his hand from say Paddington or wherever and to have been completely overlooked either on the train, or when he gave his ticket in or when he walked down the lanes to cross the field to the car . The murder hunt had started within days around the area so people's mind's would have been exercised thinking back-like the Cobbs were who had seen somebody looking a bit like the gunman was described .So the most likely scenario is that he was driven to near the Marsh Lane area or had thumbed a lift there . So who drove him there and why?

Hi Nats

I agree the question of how the gunman came to Dorney Reach is a validand critical one; and that he was driven there is a distinct possibility . If you are right about France , and that it was a job to put the frighteners on the couple (but more likely Gregsten was the target), then wouldn't France pull in someone close to him who he could trust.

Others might counter what happened to the lift home or was that never intended ? Or did the gunman miss his rendezvous?

regards
Ed

Ps got watch Witnesses' on Channel 4 now

[moste]

Hi Ed-just a quick comment .I have no idea whether John Russell is a person we need to focus on or not but what I want to know is who drove the gunman to Dorney Reach/Marsh Lane -if Dorney Reach was where the ambush was.It is just so unlikely- if you think about it, that he could have arrived by train in a smart suit and tie to a location in the heart of the country with a bulky bag of ammunition on his knee or in his hand from say Paddington or wherever and to have been completely overlooked either on the train, or when he gave his ticket in or when he walked down the lanes to cross the field to the car . The murder hunt had started within days around the area so people's mind's would have been exercised thinking back-like the Cobbs were who had seen somebody looking a bit like the gunman was described .So the most likely scenario is that he was driven to near the Marsh Lane area or had thumbed a lift there . So who drove him there and why?

I don't think anyone drove the killer to Dorney. When considering the options as you have done.
I believe We have to return to Valerie's original statement, for the truth of the matter. After some hours had gone by, and possibly the visit by Mr.Acott.
It changed to the corn field scenario.The picking a man up in slough town wasn't going to work, when it was inevitable that the two of them would be found out to be clandestine lovers. Think about it. Would a couple such as these in a relationship such as theirs, really pick up a hitchhiker? Well no, but I believe they did pick someone up in the town , for reasons we would have to guess at, the corn field, a handy red herring.
Ps. The Dolphin greyhound stadium, one of alphon's favourite venues was where the Tesco is now, just across from the Slough railway station on the A4

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats

I agree the question of how the gunman came to Dorney Reach is a validand critical one; and that he was driven there is a distinct possibility . If you are right about France , and that it was a job to put the frighteners on the couple (but more likely Gregsten was the target), then wouldn't France pull in someone close to him who he could trust.

Others might counter what happened to the lift home or was that never intended ? Or did the gunman miss his rendezvous?

regards
Ed

Ps got watch Witnesses' on Channel 4 now

Thanks Ed- I think I am right in saying the gunman once they had reached the A6 lay by began looking at his watch and before this he had said 'there is plenty of time ' -so just just prior to things taking their disastrous turn he had made Gregsten face the car towards London ....and this could mean the plan was to get them to drop him off somewhere at an appointed time -maybe near Abbot's Langley / Watford where the Gregsten's lived -the gunman getting out of the car at some place en route to be collected by whoever drove him to Dorney Reach -or by the paymaster possibly .France would surely have pulled in someone he could trust....and he wanted Hanratty out of the way .Remember how Hanratty had had to stay at the Vienna Hotel on the 21st? An indication in my view that France did not want him around his flat at any cost that night.[the Vienna Hotel where Hanratty stayed is just a few roads away from France's flat which kind of underlines what I'm saying about France wanting Hanratty out of the way that night.]

[Natalie Severn]

I don't think anyone drove the killer to Dorney. When considering the options as you have done.
I believe We have to return to Valerie's original statement, for the truth of the matter. After some hours had gone by, and possibly the visit by Mr.Acott.
It changed to the corn field scenario.The picking a man up in slough town wasn't going to work, when it was inevitable that the two of them would be found out to be clandestine lovers. Think about it. Would a couple such as these in a relationship such as theirs, really pick up a hitchhiker? Well no, but I believe they did pick someone up in the town , for reasons we would have to guess at, the corn field, a handy red herring.
Ps. The Dolphin greyhound stadium, one of alphon's favourite venues was where the Tesco is now, just across from the Slough railway station on the A4

The only way that could make sense is if Gregsten had been borrowing money to finance the second home he was about to acquire in Maidenhead on 27th August-that week in fact.We know he was in very serious money trouble and worried a lot about it.But as far as we know he didn't gamble or owe money because of it.But if he was as broke as we are led to believe and as unhappy about it -how on earth was he planning to keep a wife and two children in Abbots Langley and a separate flat for himself as he intended in Maidenhead from later that week ? Maybe he did owe money to someone and hadn't bothered to pay it back.

[moste]

Thanks Ed- I think I am right in saying the gunman once they had reached the A6 lay by began looking at his watch and before this he had said 'there is plenty of time ' -so just just prior to things taking their disastrous turn he had made Gregsten face the car towards London ....and this could mean the plan was to get them to drop him off somewhere at an appointed time -maybe near Abbot's Langley / Watford where the Gregsten's lived -the gunman getting out of the car at some place en route to be collected by whoever drove him to Dorney Reach -or by the paymaster possibly .France would surely have pulled in someone he could trust....and he wanted Hanratty out of the way .Remember how Hanratty had had to stay at the Vienna Hotel on the 21st? An indication in my view that France did not want him around his flat at any cost that night.

Hi Nats, I don't think there was any significance in the car being turned around, as far as, where it was going to be going next. Remember the layby was a dead end. I have mentioned before that the killer not being a driver in the true sense of the word, had Mike turn it around so that he wouldn't have to concern himself with 3 point turn in almost total darkness
I'm with you, on the "France not wanting Jim at his place on that last night "hadn't considered that before. Since they were all such good mates Jim giving the Mrs. 15 quid and all, why wouldn't he stay there, before heading to Liverpool?

[Spitfire]

The only way that could make sense is if Gregsten had been borrowing money to finance the second home he was about to acquire in Maidenhead on 27th August-that week in fact.We know he was in very serious money trouble and worried a lot about it.But as far as we know he didn't gamble or owe money because of it.But if he was as broke as we are led to believe and as unhappy about it -how on earth was he planning to keep a wife and two children in Abbots Langley and a separate flat for himself as he intended in Maidenhead from later that week ? Maybe he did owe money to someone and hadn't bothered to pay it back.

That's extremely bad luck on Gregsten's part. Not only is the hitchhiker he picks up armed with a revolver, he happens to to owe the hitchhiker a small fortune.

No doubt we have witnesses who saw a hitchhiker on the A4 carrying a revolver and several boxes of ammunition.

[cobalt]

Ed,
Thanks for your comments and good to have you as an active member back on the site.

One reason to focus on the locus is that the London and Liverpool ends of the enquiry were mired by career criminals and dodgy coppers. I think many on the site have acknowledged the limitations of evidence collected by police at the London end of the investigation, and I thought it was important to open up the probability that something similar happened in Merseyside. It seems Hanratty was caught in a pincer movement from both North and South.

The question of how the killer arrived at a corn field in the middle of nowhere (or maybe was picked up by Gregsten and Storie close by) must have an answer. It was not something that seemed to exercise the prosecution, nor so far as I am aware the defence, at the trial. However the idea of Hanratty, or Alphon, or anyone else for that matter using public transport, being tooled up, wearing a sharp suit, and prowling country lanes is just not credible. Since no stolen/abandoned cars were found in the aftermath of the terrible events, it seems likely the killer must have been driven to where the crime was committed. His lack of driving competence is another factor suggesting this method of travel. That does not amount to a conspiracy as such, but it does mean that someone other than the killer was aware of the sequence of events. The ‘chauffeur’ must have spoken to someone, let something slip over the years.

As for motive, Hanratty was reported as saying that the housebreaking game was all washed up, or words to that effect. He may well have said this, just as respectable businessmen lament their choice of trade every other day of the week. But how on earth does it follow from this that he had decided to take up armed robbery? Was he ever reported as saying that he intended a criminal career change?

Hanratty was a fairly skilled car thief, at a time when car ownership was taking off exponentially and would continue to do so for the next 30 years. He did not need to undertake a crash course in armed robbery when he already had a ‘skill’ that was becoming more valuable by the day.