The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[moste]

[QUOTE=Ed James;347269]

Hi Ed,I think from reading your post you may be missing my speculative point. So lets have some fun,To wit, Was Mike G on to something, whereby, because he had become privy to information that he deemed could be very damaging to the likes of Ernie M,? Perhaps he decided to improve his financial situation, with an acquisition of funds (If he kept his mouth shut)which would be released into his account forthwith.

Hi Moste

I get less opportunity to see posts now ,but when I do I am bowled over by the insights and knowledge of those posting, yourself included. But I can't go along with any connection with poor Gregsten and Ernie M (much as I would like there to be dirt dished on Ernie (not the premium bond one in Lytham St Annes!). Drawing on my personal experience, Whitehall based Ministers just don't rub shoulders with outstationed folk like Michael G . Plus if it was an assassin would a poor job - leaving Valerie for dead.

In any case, as this thread is supposed to be Alphon oriented , perhaps he was in on the blackmail (no I'm not serious but it would explain the series bank payments) - but why wasn't Alphon eliminated?

It seems to me that seldom do people ask questions about the case , possibly a reluctance to display a lack of knowledge. I'll start the ball rolling on a pivotal issue. Why was the murder gun and ammo dumped in plain sight on the 36A bus in that part of London? Surely the perpetrator (and any accomplice) would not want to dump it in their haunts. I can anticipate people saying because Hanratty (or for that matter France) were not bright and panicked. Or was it a panicking Alphon who was seen at Victoria on the day of the dumping? But what if Limehouse is right and someone wanted to distract police attention away from Wanstead?

Ed

Did you miss my P.S. in the last sentence about Alphons .32 shooter? Also the anomaly of the .38 under the back seat of the bus? Absolute fantasy stuff, that weapon had nothing to do with the A6 killing, it was a plant! There we are, there is another oddity biting the dust.(Good fun eh?) Alphon's part in the crime two and a half grand. MGs demands five grand. How much was in Alphons account when the dust had settled?

[Sherlock Houses]

A bit of levity and light-hearted relief

On October 23rd 1961, at Ampthill Court, James Hanratty was remanded in custody for the second time [until October 31st]. He was taken to the court in a police van accompanied by several very peculiarly dressed middle-aged/elderly women.

The following extract is taken from an Evening Times [a Glasgow Newspaper] article from that day......

[Sherlock Houses]

Glasgow Evening Times

Incidentally, for anyone who may not be aware of this, the Evening Times is one of two Glasgow Newspapers which have been freely available on the excellent Google Newspaper Archives site for several years now. The other one is the Glasgow Herald as I'm sure some of you already know.

Here's a link...............

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2mus-XyGPC0C&dat=19620721&b_mode=2&hl=en

[moste]

This business of the likes of M.G. not rubbing shoulders with cabinet ministers is a none starter for me. People tend to hold celebrity in awe, placing the likes of politicians on pedestals. But in fact most are regular guys and girls, who wouldn't like their increased rise in fame to affect there interacting with the people next door, the man in the street etc. In a word 'not being a snob', basically
Ernie Marples was born and raised a couple of streets away from my Dad in the very working class district of Levenshulme. Manchester. Ernies Dad being a staunch Labour man, naturally influenced his young son in his political views .However, his parents scraped enough together for a decent education and Ernest took off for the stars, and, in the process became a staunch tory. However, I don't believe he would renege on rubbing shoulders with the likes of our Mike G (you remember him, the guy who has an insatiable appetite for chatting up/picking up, young women. Paraphrasing his best friend.)

[moste]

Incidentally, for anyone who may not be aware of this, the Evening Times is one of two Glasgow Newspapers which have been freely available on the excellent Google Newspaper Archives site for several years now. The other one is the Glasgow Herald as I'm sure some of you already know.

Here's a link...............
https://news.google.com/newspapers?n...b_mode=2&hl=en

Fanbloodytastic. URL, now in my favourites, thank you.

[cobalt]

All good speculative fun, but it would be better if the theory were supported by some known facts rather than being suspended in disbelief.

It is hard to see Valerie Storie as part of the Cliveden set, cavorting alongside Christine Keeler and Mandy Rice-Davis around a swimming pool.

And why on earth would Gregsten light upon Alphon, a man he could surely have never met, as choice to ride shotgun?
Or alternatively, why would Mr Big choose Alphon, a man with no driving experience, to bring the car back?
Why plan to bring the car back anyway if the assassin just blasted away and left in his own vehicle-Alphon could have hitched a lift with him.
And the assassin might as well have killed everyone in the car to be on the safe side since he could only swing once.

There may be limited mileage in submitting Valerie Storie’s claim of picking up a man near Slough to linguistic analysis, given her condition at the time. But she did apparently use this form of words to two witnesses, so it is not unreasonable to examine the implications of what she said. It is highly unlikely a courting couple would pick up a random hitch hiker in the late evening, which does suggest the possibility of an arranged meeting. It also removes the puzzle of how a gunman managed to get to the cornfield undetected, since he was never there in the first place.

[cobalt]

SH,

Why is Superintendent Morgan claiming, two months after the murder, that he does not know either the date on which it occurred, or when the weapon was found on the bus?
He was interviewed at the scene of the crime on 23rd August. Edwin Cooke, the bus cleaner, gave a TV interview on the 25th August.

Are you suggesting that Morgan was sceptical about the information which was already in the public domain?

[Ed James]

Really Ed.

Would you like to say when Whitehall types would rub shoulders with the likes of people other than Gregsten and why?

Del

Del

I can only tell you what I found as first a very junior civil servant and then as a senior civil servant.

It is not a question of Ministers' background or social standing (Tories and Labour were no different). It was how through custom and practice the hierarchy works - not necessarily the most efficient way .

Ministers would generally deal with senior civil servants or, the grade immediately below the senior civil service ( the old Principal Grade) in relation to the subject matter for which they were responsible. And this would invariably be in the presence of the Minister's Private Secretary.

On a visit to an 'outstation' such as the Road Research Laboratory (or whatever) the Minister would be always accompanied by his own officials and those of the site.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Gregsten had access to any 'secrets' that would necessitate his elimination or that he personally met or dealt with powerful Ministers.

For me a more mundane motive would apply for the abduction of the couple.

Ed

[Natalie Severn]

Del


For me a more mundane motive would apply for the abduction of the couple.

Ed

indeed-the time honoured one of who benefitted.In this case William Ewer.nx

[Natalie Severn]

fascinating though the Marples link-will return to it later.nx

[Ed James]

indeed-the time honoured one of who benefitted.In this case William Ewer.nx

Hi Nats/Norma

I am a 'don't know' in relation to Hanratty's guilt ,but lean heavily to Ewer's involvement.

Such involvement does not preclude Hanratty from the abduction/crime but why then would Ewer finger him. There are lots of unexplained aspects of Hanratty's alibi and behaviour that lead to him being implicated in many peoples thinking . But I don't think that the opportunistic alighting on the Morris Minor or the sexual lust motives stand up to close scrutiny.

And from what we know of Hanratty , I find it hard to believe that he could sustain the necessary concentration /attention to hold the couple hostage for such a duration.

But returning to Ewer, it seems even Acott suspected his involvement since he referred to the crime being a gas meter job (ie inside). It was perhaps just that having a case against Hanratty who he believed was guilty , he didn't want to risk a loss of conviction by pursuing the Ewer angle.

I recall that Ewer was interviewed by the police on 11 September 1961 (for what purpose?), but this was over shadowed by the discovery of the cartridge shells at the Vienna that day.

It would be interesting to see the full Ewer interview notes from which Woffinden I think quoted some remarks about Ewer's view of Gregsten's character.

Ed

[Sherlock Houses]

SH,

Why is Superintendent Morgan claiming, two months after the murder, that he does not know either the date on which it occurred, or when the weapon was found on the bus?
He was interviewed at the scene of the crime on 23rd August. Edwin Cooke, the bus cleaner, gave a TV interview on the 25th August.

A very pertinent question Cobalt. It seems as if Superintendent Morgan was suffering from a temporary bout of amnesia between August 23rd and October 23rd.

The main reason I attached that newspaper extract was for a bit of fun regarding the 'typo' error in the second to last paragraph.

[Sherlock Houses]

Youtube comment I received in January 2013....

With reference to various speculation on this thread recently about Michael Gregsten and his work at the Road Research Lab in Langley, I thought the following extract [from an email of mine] might interest some folk. Wild speculation or what ????

Interestingly in the newspaper reports from 1961/62 Michael was always described as being either a "scientist" or "physicist".

[Dupplin Muir]

That sounds like the sort of thing Alphon might have claimed!

[NickB]

In the Evening Times 23-Aug-61 issue it says:

‘She told police they were shot by a man who thumbed a lift at Slough last night.’

But later it says:
‘He was described as having a smooth face and large eyes and was reported to have contacted the couple at Dorney Common last night.’

So right at the outset Dorney was mentioned.

It would be interesting to see the full Ewer interview notes

The Sunday Times article in 1971:

‘Mr Ewer said in his statement that his only contacts with the police had been his telephone report of seeing a man whom he thought answered the description of the murderer and later asking for permission to attend the trial.

But in a further interview last Thursday Mr Ewer admitted that he had had much more frequent contacts with the police. It was, for example, a policeman who had told him that Hanratty had also been in the cleaners shop. Also he had spoken to police officers a number of times before the trial.’