The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[NickB]

‘“Can I kiss my girlfriend in case anything happens?” asked Mike.’

This is in Valerie’s account in the newspaper immediately after the trial. I don’t know if it was in her evidence but there were other things, like the three penny bit and saying they were very fond of each other, that indicated the affair.

There are two reasons I can think of why Sherrard did not probe further.
1) he thought that enough hints were being dropped that the affair was implicit;
2) he thought it would be counterproductive.

Whichever was applicable (perhaps both) surely he was right not to do so.

Talking of undisclosed relationships ... Sherrard and Blom-Cooper were well known to each other - a close friendship had been forged when they were contemporaries at Kings College, London.

[Natalie Severn]

Blimey, Nats, are you not skating very close to saying she would not have been raped and shot if she hadn't been having sex with a married man in his car, practically inviting some deeply implausible conspiracy to prise the randy couple apart by hook or by crook? What she was doing at the time (even if it was dancing naked and drunk in the moonlight, tempting her lover to "come and get me, big boy") should be entirely irrelevant as far as a case against the defendant goes. She did not ask to be shot and raped and MG shot dead. She was not in any way, shape or form responsible for what happened in that cornfield. She was not on trial; Hanratty was. If his defence had tried to introduce such a highly speculative motive for the crime with no evidence, and to argue for reasonable doubt on that basis, I'm not sure it would have done him a bit of good. The jury convicted him without a clue what his motive would have been anyway, and as much on the strength of his altered alibi as anything else. Besides, if there really was a conspiracy to split up the naughty pair, how would that have cleared Hanratty of being hired to play the stick-up man with his new toy and just not being up to the job?
Love,

Caz
X

Who is saying anything like that? Of course Valerie was not responsible for anything that happened in that cornfield .Of course she did not deserve any of what happened to happen to her .It was outrageous and still is that she suffered all that and remains paralysed to this day . Neither did Michael Gregsten deserve to suffer what he did and die because of being married and having an affair -however he wasn't the first man that has happened to and he certainly won't be the last .
What I am pointing out is that along with many others before and since ,I believe that the whole thing was an attempt by a member of Janet's family to stop Michael Gregsten leaving his wife and family that very week on 27th August to live in a flat in Maidenhead -leaving two children both under 5 ,one a baby , leaving enormous debts and his deserted wife to struggle on alone without a husband as wage earner.
Given that that is what I and many others believe viz the hold up was a way to scare the lovers apart by someone in Janet's family paying a hitman ,the whole case falls into place and becomes a domestic tragedy of monumental proportions ,the truth of which was concealed by police and prosecution and never allowed to see the light of day in court-and which, in my opinion, was a thoroughly corrupt and despicable decision - hiding the truth about their affair and by doing so the likely domestic motive behind the crime-which went wrong and ended so tragically .The police and prosecuting counsel in this case never allowed the whole truth to surface which would have helped Justice to prevail and instead the result was a 25 year old man was executed for a crime he had nothing whatever to do with . It would not be the first time the real killer has gone free -who was probably someone who hung round Soho which at the time was riddled with police taking bribes from gangsters---read all about it- its in many bookshops now the true extent of late 1950's and early 1960's Soho corruption mostly centred around porn but also around 'jobs' .It got cleaned up just a couple of years later .....

[caz]

This crime was no Hold Up, a crime which would have been over and done with in a matter of minutes. It was something else.

But for Hanratty it would have been his first attempt, and his first outing as an armed man. Wasn't it something he had admitted he wanted to try? And didn't the events of that night - not least the inept way Valerie was left alive to tell the tale - positively scream the inexperience of the gunman responsible?

I really don't think you are helping Hanratty with this argument. I agree that an experienced hold-up merchant, on a contract or working alone, would have done what he came to do in seconds and been off on his toes. This was entirely something else.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

As far as Valerie's account is concerned it makes no reference to her affair with Gregsten.In fact a pile of camouflage has taken place about them both reading maps and then chatting in a darkening cornfield about them.That is a staggering omission if you think about it. I don't believe it was easy for the defence to cross examine Valerie with regard to her sex life ,especially as she was in a very vulnerable state still on a stretcherin court,brought by ambulance , recovering from bullet wounds ,rape,trauma , Gregsten's death etc .I don't believe it would have gone down well in court for the defence to put her on the spot like that, insensitive to her fragile state.I do believe though that Valerie would have readilly admitted the relationship's sexual basis if she had been allowed to as in the June of 1962 she spoke about it in a magazine series of two . Clearly Acott had advised against divulging it in court and Valerie was compliant.But it was wrong and misleading of Acott and the prosecution to have done so.

Blimey, Nats, are you not skating very close to saying she would not have been raped and shot if she hadn't been having sex with a married man in his car, practically inviting some deeply implausible conspiracy to prise the randy couple apart by hook or by crook? What she was doing at the time (even if it was dancing naked and drunk in the moonlight, tempting her lover to "come and get me, big boy") should be entirely irrelevant as far as a case against the defendant goes. She did not ask to be shot and raped and MG shot dead. She was not in any way, shape or form responsible for what happened in that cornfield. She was not on trial; Hanratty was. If his defence had tried to introduce such a highly speculative motive for the crime with no evidence, and to argue for reasonable doubt on that basis, I'm not sure it would have done him a bit of good. The jury convicted him without a clue what his motive would have been anyway, and as much on the strength of his altered alibi as anything else. Besides, if there really was a conspiracy to split up the naughty pair, how would that have cleared Hanratty of being hired to play the stick-up man with his new toy and just not being up to the job?

Love,

Caz
X

[uncle_adolph]

Lord Russell of Liverpool in his book Deadman's Hill: Was Hanratty Guilty? notes that there had been attempts at house-breaking in the houses on and near Marsh Lane. Not that he was specifically pointing the finger at Hanratty, but perhaps Jim had indeed tried his luck there in the recent past.

Graham

Haven't you contradicted yourself in one sentence there?

By the way, thank you and to Spitfire for pointing out my error. Clearly I will have to re-read my Woffinden....

[Spitfire]

Alphon gripped Mrs Hanratty around the throat as she intervened to stop Alphon making a vicious attack on Jean Justice and the police were called.There was also an incident in a hotel where he had to be thrown out for disturbing the peace.

Hardly armed robbery, is it?

[NickB]

When Alphon said he backed 'Mentals only hope' at Slough the dog was quite well known.

‘Mentals only hope’ made headlines in March 1961 when he failed to stop at the end of a race at Wimbledon. He kept going until sheer exhaustion brought him to a halt after half an hour.

In May 1961 betting shops were legalised and greyhound racing started a long decline. There were 25 tracks in London, now Wimbledon is the only one remaining.

[Natalie Severn]

So what you're saying is that it is inconceivable that Hanratty should move up a division from burglar to robber, but very likely that Alphon should graduate from his humble position of greyhound punter and almanac seller to armed robber?

Alphon gripped Mrs Hanratty around the throat as she intervened to stop Alphon making a vicious attack on Jean Justice and the police were called.There was also an incident in a hotel where he had to be thrown out for disturbing the peace.

[Natalie Severn]

Lord Russell of Liverpool in his book Deadman's Hill: Was Hanratty Guilty? notes that there had been attempts at house-breaking in the houses on and near Marsh Lane. Not that he was specifically pointing the finger at Hanratty, but perhaps Jim had indeed tried his luck there in the recent past. Also, Valerie said that when the gunman forced his way into the car, one of her first impressions was that 'he was a burglar'. It's known that most of his jobs were done in up-market outlying areas of London, so it's not out of the question that he'd done jobs in the remoter parts of the Slough/Maidenhead area.

Graham

Lord Russell may be right but we know Hanratty's movements from when he quitted doing window cleaning with his Dad in July.They are pretty well documented even including where and when he obtained his employment card in Cardiff South Wales.Apart from a few burglaries around the Stanmore Area that the police became aware of and traced his fingerprints he spent most of his time chasing girls and going to the Rehearsal Club .There is no mention by anyone at any time of him going to Maidenhead,Slough or anywhere near them. He went to the racing in Hendon,Wembley -mostly North London. But Alphon knew Slough Stadium in the West and its dog tracks very well and was well known there.He apparently knew the Bear Inn in Maidenhead too which is not far from where Gregsten had acquired his flat.

[Spitfire]

The words burglary and robbery are easily mixed up, and a lawyer could spend hours debating the semantics.

In essence, James Hanratty was a burglar, albeit not a very successful one as he had a track record of getting caught. He broke into houses when people were not there and filched what he could. He also nicked cars when the owners had left them parked in vulnerable areas. He was not a good member of society.

But a robber is a very different proposition. A robber uses force or intimidation to obtain his booty, and that would have been breaking new ground for Hanratty. Even the prosecution was unable to dig up anything in his background to suggest that 'the burglary game is all washed up' and that he had to move up a level to armed robbery.

I suspect a burglar no more drifts into robbery than a flasher becomes a rapist. (Remember Colin Stagg and the Rachel Nickell murder). I have no data to support this contention, but then neither did Acott nor Oxford have any for theirs.

So what you're saying is that it is inconceivable that Hanratty should move up a division from burglar to robber, but very likely that Alphon should graduate from his humble position of greyhound punter and almanac seller to armed robber?

[cobalt]

The words burglary and robbery are easily mixed up, and a lawyer could spend hours debating the semantics.

In essence, James Hanratty was a burglar, albeit not a very successful one as he had a track record of getting caught. He broke into houses when people were not there and filched what he could. He also nicked cars when the owners had left them parked in vulnerable areas. He was not a good member of society.

But a robber is a very different proposition. A robber uses force or intimidation to obtain his booty, and that would have been breaking new ground for Hanratty. Even the prosecution was unable to dig up anything in his background to suggest that 'the burglary game is all washed up' and that he had to move up a level to armed robbery.

I suspect a burglar no more drifts into robbery than a flasher becomes a rapist. (Remember Colin Stagg and the Rachel Nickell murder). I have no data to support this contention, but then neither did Acott nor Oxford have any for theirs.

[moste]

Regarding lack of sighting in Marsh Lane of anyone resembling Hanratty, I think this is not really relevant. I'm sure the local householders had much better things to do than look out for, and note the appearance, of passers-by. When I walked the area, it wasn't exactly Oxford Street in terms of pedestrians, but there were people out and about on foot.

Lord Russell of Liverpool in his book Deadman's Hill: Was Hanratty Guilty? notes that there had been attempts at house-breaking in the houses on and near Marsh Lane. Not that he was specifically pointing the finger at Hanratty, but perhaps Jim had indeed tried his luck there in the recent past. Also, Valerie said that when the gunman forced his way into the car, one of her first impressions was that 'he was a burglar'. It's known that most of his jobs were done in up-market outlying areas of London, so it's not out of the question that he'd done jobs in the remoter parts of the Slough/Maidenhead area.

Graham

I think she thought when they heard the tap on the car window, it was a farmer or someone coming to complain about them being parked there. Then when realising it was a bad person with a gun, she quickly noted he was smartly dressed in a dark suit, why would she have the impression it was a burglar? that's weird.
The idea that it was Hanratty out to do some house breaking in the Marsh Lane farm fields area is ridiculous. Planning a night of burglary by someone who earns his living at it, isn't something you just head off and do! A number of considerations are necessary, the ease of escape from the targeted area, i.e., bus service, tube service,(in London)or own vehicle in the next street, I mentioned before, casing the dwelling beforehand is another issue, that's why I speculated some time back on Alphon with his peddling almanacs would have been the perfect ruse for this purpose.
No, I believe if Jim was going to expand his horizons it would be more likely that he would be thinking more along the lines of Chesham or Amersham (end of the line tube locales)more that line of country than country lanes off the beaten track. Those reported burglary's on Marsh road were more than likely local Taplow kids, swiping bikes out of peoples driveways, not bona fida burglars per say.

[Spitfire]

You'll have to remind me.....was this before or after Valerie knew that the main suspect was a housebreaker?

According to Woffinden (page 4 of Pan 1999 ed) Valerie Storie said in her fourth statement made on 28th August 1961,

"I thought he was a burglar and he was waiting for someone."

Hanratty was not then a suspect.

[Graham]

You'll have to remind me.....was this before or after Valerie knew that the main suspect was a housebreaker?

Before. It wasn't until the cartridge-cases were found at The Vienna on 11 September that the police were aware of Ryan later identified as Hanratty and that he had 'form'. Valerie's statement was made during her initial questioning in the days following the crime. Even then there was no sound reason for the police to tell her much about Hanratty anyway.

When do you think she learned that Hanratty had form as a housebreaker?

Graham

[uncle_adolph]

Also, Valerie said that when the gunman forced his way into the car, one of her first impressions was that 'he was a burglar'.

Graham

You'll have to remind me.....was this before or after Valerie knew that the main suspect was a housebreaker?