The attack on Swedish housewife Mrs Meike Dalal on Thursday, September 7th 1961

[caz]

Caz, I don't accept that having a look at Alphon's stay at the Vienna Hotel and how it then led to Hanratty and Hanratty's subsequent execution is remotely comparable to what happened to Hanratty.
It is also a fact that the nationwide search put out by police in 1961 for Alphon and his subsequent questioning by police and the police dropping him from their inquiries led directly to police questioning Hanratty. So Alphon remains someone we have to deal with when looking at the case.This astounding and extraordinary co-incidence and it was not the only astonishing co-incidence .
But you have decided this is hypocritical of me because in your opinion I am not using the same yardstick of justice for Alphon when I consider his possible role in the A6 murder as I do for Hanratty and other justice campaigns say Hillsborough. Alphon did not die Caz, was not a victim of police--- or anybody else----'fitting him' up or police altering his statements- so far as we know -yes he was in prison briefly [ my mistake previously when I said he was not imprisoned in this post ] -he was briefly in Brixton prison and he was freed from Brixton upon being given an alibi by the almanac sellers ,his occasional employers. So how can there be a 'miscarriage of justice' for me to campaign around?
I think the way you are personally attacking my integrity on these boards is uncalled for.My suggestion to you is that we ignore each other's posts to avoid you continuing your personal attacks .
Best Wishes
Norma

Okay Nats, I'll just say this and then I'll be glad to let it drop.

I suppose this was the bottom line for me:

In Alphon's case there is no DNA or other forensics (indeed it was someone else's DNA found on the two surviving pieces of important physical evidence, as Graham has pointed out); nothing connecting him with the crime scene or murder weapon; and a failed victim identification to kick things off. Any case made against him post-2002 has to boil down to "acting suspiciously".

In fact it put me in mind of the old Not the Nine O'Clock News sketch in which Constable Savage arrests someone for "looking at me in a funny way". It might have been comical if it hadn't involved such a senseless and horrific crime.

In short, if Hanratty had been put on trial for murder (never mind convicted and hanged) on as little evidence as there is against Alphon, the whole world would rightly have wept at the injustice, not just a few of his die-hard defenders.

My beef begins and ends there.

Love,

Caz
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[caz]

Alphon wasn't fragile mentally. Thats all.

Well he couldn't have been 100% up top, moste, or he wouldn't have 'confessed' to a capital crime - guilty or not. I'm with Nats on that one.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

He didn't need to line his case with anything though. The contents of the case were all neatly wrapped up in brown paper or newspaper. Most people in those days, I would say, would have chucked an almost 4 day old newspaper in a nearby bin. Not Alphon though. I wonder just how much longer he kept hold of that particular copy of the Express ?

There's your answer, SH. If his habit was to wrap case contents neatly up in newspaper, why would he not have carried a spare? I always put a spare carrier bag in luggage of any kind, for purchases, shoes or dirty washing.

Love,

Caz
X

[Graham]

Well he couldn't have been 100% up top, moste, or he wouldn't have 'confessed' to a capital crime - guilty or not. I'm with Nats on that one.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

false confessions to murder are far from rare, and it seems that the worse and/or more in the public eye the crime is, the more false confessions! I mentioned the Jill Dando Case, where more than 60 false confessions wasted an awful lot of police time. I've read that there were possibly 300 false confessions to the Lindbergh Kidnap case. Why people do it is beyond me. The guy who sent those tapes to the police investigating the Yorkshire Ripper Murders is another well-known one. There are also confessions obtained through police pressure and/or coercion, Stephen Downing being a well-known victim of this.

I just wonder, in Alphon's case, how much he was put up to his false confessions by his pal Jean Justice - his 'little girl'. But in Alphon's confessions there was always a 'deliberate mistake', or so it seems to me, something he could use as a fall-back in case things got hot for him.

Graham

[Dupplin Muir]

Graham wrote:

false confessions to murder are far from rare, and it seems that the worse and/or more in the public eye the crime is, the more false confessions!

Yes, but people don't usually confess while in the process of committing another crime! I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that Alphon attacked Mrs Dalal and should have been charged with it. The willingness of the police to accept his so-called alibi was nothing short of a dereliction of duty. Why didn't they accuse the almanac sellers of getting the wrong day, or wanting their '15 minutes of fame' as they did with JH's alibi witnesses?

False confessions almost invariably happen in only one of two circumstances:

A) Someone is seeking attention and walks into a police station and says "I am Jack the Ripper" (or whatever).
B) The police browbeat or trick a vulnerable person into giving a false confession, usually by promising to give them bail.

[NickB]

I don't think anyone can seriously doubt that Alphon attacked Mrs Dalal

I'm sure he did not attack Mrs Dalal.

Alphon was only put on Dalal’s id parade because the attacker had claimed to be the A6 murderer. But the only thing that implicated him in this was Nudds temporary second statement - a classic case of police browbeating. Effectively Dalal was presented with a complete parade of fillers. Under these circumstances, what are the chances of anyone making a correct identification?

They should have put Alphon on Valerie’s id parade first, and only if she had identified him then put him on Dalal’s id parade.

[Natalie Severn]

Graham, when the Home Office asked Scotland Yard for a report on the A6 murder , Scotland Yard appointed one of their top men in Roger Matthews,a long serving and distinguished chief detective and a Cambridge graduate ,so he must have assessed the evidence he saw pretty carefully over a period of nearly a year with a team of 20 detectives to help him present a report worthy of a Home Office review.Whatever the report contained must also have been compelling for it to have been accepted by the Chief Police Constable of Bedfordshire Baden Skit in charge of the CCRB-who,like Matthews was absolutely convinced by what he read in the report of Hanratty's innocence. Both men so far as I know remain convinced of Hanratty's innocence and cannot understand the DNA result.
I think Matthews believes that somebody drove two men to the Taplow Inn, and these two men were seen by at least one other person that night sitting in a room next to the main bar from which you can/could see Dorney Reach Cornfield and the movements of the Morris Minor that night . This is just a snippet of information I gleaned about this report by Roger Matthews ---and it may not be wholly accurate as I myself have never spoken with him but I am pretty certain he was convinced three people were involved in the crime and that Hanratty had nothing to do with it. Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Okay Nats, I'll just say this and then I'll be glad to let it drop.

I suppose this was the bottom line for me:

In Alphon's case there is no DNA or other forensics

My beef begins and ends there.

Love,

Caz
X

Cheers Caz---quite right there isn't but there are unsolved anomalies and strange coincidences

[Spitfire]

I'm sure he did not attack Mrs Dalal.

Alphon was only put on Dalal’s id parade because the attacker had claimed to be the A6 murderer. But the only thing that implicated him in this was Nudds temporary second statement - a classic case of police browbeating. Effectively Dalal was presented with a complete parade of fillers. Under these circumstances, what are the chances of anyone making a correct identification?

They should have put Alphon on Valerie’s id parade first, and only if she had identified him then put him on Dalal’s id parade.

Mrs Dalal could only identify who had attacked her and who had claimed to be the A6 killer. The fact that the person had claimed to be the A6 killer would not necessarily mean that he was. It was as, if not more, likely that the attacker of Mrs Dalal was using the claim to be the A6 killer as a threat to intimidate her rather than a true claim.

Alphon could have attacked Mrs Dalal but that did not make him the A6 killer.

[caz]

Hi Caz,

false confessions to murder are far from rare, and it seems that the worse and/or more in the public eye the crime is, the more false confessions! I mentioned the Jill Dando Case, where more than 60 false confessions wasted an awful lot of police time. I've read that there were possibly 300 false confessions to the Lindbergh Kidnap case. Why people do it is beyond me. The guy who sent those tapes to the police investigating the Yorkshire Ripper Murders is another well-known one. There are also confessions obtained through police pressure and/or coercion, Stephen Downing being a well-known victim of this.

Hi Graham,

I agree with all of this, but would still argue that voluntary confessions to murder, when we had the death penalty, would not generally have been made by the mentally sound and well-adjusted. A false confession could have landed you in very hot water unless you could prove your innocence when push came to shove.

And I think that must have reassured Alphon when claiming involvement - that he knew there was no actual evidence against him apart from his own less than reliable word for it, not nearly enough for a prosecution.

If he had been the gunman and rapist, what on earth would have possessed him to confess at all, when he had been getting away with it? If he'd had a death wish (or even less likely, had been suffering from terrible remorse), he'd surely have found some way to incriminate himself beyond doubt.

Stating the obvious, all false confessions will have one thing in common - nothing conclusive to indicate guilt. Genuine confessions will succeed if the person really wants to be believed. If they don't want to be believed, why would they confess in the first place? Double bluff?

Love,

Caz
X

[Graham]

Hi Nats,

I think Matthews believes that somebody drove two men to the Taplow Inn, and these two men were seen by at least one other person that night sitting in a room next to the main bar from which you can/could see Dorney Reach Cornfield and the movements of the Morris Minor that night

Do you mean the Old Station Inn, now demolished? If so, this stood well back from the main A4, on the north side, and although I don't know if there were any buildings between it and the A4, there were certainly buildings on the south side of the road which blocked any sight of the country beyond. Even so, I don't think there was any chance of the cornfield being visible from the Inn. Unfortunately my large-scale map of London doesn't extend far enough west, so I can't do any measurements. There's a large garage very close to where the Inn used to be, and having filled my car there on the day I went to Marsh Lane, I can assure you that you can't see the cornfield from there. This is the first time I've heard this theory, though, that's for sure!

Mrs Lanz, who was the licensee of the Inn, was claimed by Jean Justice to have stated that she had seen Alphon more than once prior to the murder, and that on the night of the murder he was present at the Inn in the company of a 'blonde woman' who possibly was wearing a wig according to Mrs Lanz. This 'blonde woman' was claimed by Justice to be Janet Gregsten, which I always thought was totally preposterous! He then has Alphon and the 'blonde woman' engaging in conversation, with her encouraging him to 'do it', i.e., the murder. The Old Station Inn was on at least one occasion used as a film set, and it sounds as if Justice might have been quoting from the script of a B-rated detective movie! Unfortunately, the statement Mrs Lanz gave to the police very soon after the murder was totally different to the joint Justice/Alphon concoction.

One last thing, Nats: if the Matthews Report so convincingly proves Hanratty's innocence, why has it never been published?

Graham

[Graham]

Hi Caz,

you're quite correct in what you say, of course. However, there was a case in the USA about 30 years ago in which a man voluntarily confessed to a murder, and ended up spending years on death row before it was proved that he had nothing to do with it. I'm afraid I can't remember names, location or any other details, so don't know if the man concerned was of sound mind or not......I'd say 'not', to be honest.

Graham

[caz]

False confessions almost invariably happen in only one of two circumstances:

A) Someone is seeking attention and walks into a police station and says "I am Jack the Ripper" (or whatever).
B) The police browbeat or trick a vulnerable person into giving a false confession, usually by promising to give them bail.

It must happen occasionally that an attention seeker draws attention to himself before A) happens, and when the police take an interest he makes a false confession to keep the attention on himself.

Again, what would have made Alphon confess willingly if he had been genuinely guilty of the A6 crime, but didn't fancy having his neck stretched for it?

That would make no sense to me at all. Do you know of any such cases in criminal history?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by caz View Post
Okay Nats, I'll just say this and then I'll be glad to let it drop.

I suppose this was the bottom line for me:

In Alphon's case there is no DNA or other forensics

My beef begins and ends there.

Love,

Caz
X

Cheers Caz---quite right there isn't but there are unsolved anomalies and strange coincidences

That wasn't quite the full 'beef', Nats, so I'd have preferred to be quoted in context, but we can't have everything, can we?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz,

you're quite correct in what you say, of course. However, there was a case in the USA about 30 years ago in which a man voluntarily confessed to a murder, and ended up spending years on death row before it was proved that he had nothing to do with it. I'm afraid I can't remember names, location or any other details, so don't know if the man concerned was of sound mind or not......I'd say 'not', to be honest.

Graham

Well quite. Who in their right mind would do such a thing?

Love,

Caz
X