Mail's feature of 1999 on Hanratty by Roger Matthews

[Spitfire]

Have I got this right?

Mr Larman says he saw someone who looked like Hanratty at about 7.30 pm on Tuesday 22 August 1961 and who asked where he could get digs for the night. This person who looked like Hanratty had no luggage. Mr Larman sent him to Mrs Jones at Ingledene.

Mrs Walker says she saw someone (without luggage) at 7.30 pm who looked like Hanratty and who asked for digs.

Mrs Ivy Walker corroborates this, by saying she saw the man, who looked like Hanratty, leave Mrs Walker's house and come to her house to ask for digs.

Hanratty himself said that he left Liverpool at about 7.30 pm, but the last bus from Liverpool left at 6.00 pm and arrived in Rhyl at 8.19 pm. He said it was dark by the time he found accommodation (digs).

Can someone do a timeline from 8.19 pm onwards which would help illustrate the strengths of Hanratty's alibi?

[Spitfire]

I have looked at the times of sunset etc for 22 August 2014 which gives sunset as being 20.24 and civil twilight ending at 21.02.

At the trial Mr Swanwick's diary gave sunset as 20.30, which if correct would give a time of 21.08 as the time when civil twilight ended and it became 'dark'.

[GUT]

G'day Spitfire

Hanratty himself said that he left Liverpool at about 7.30 pm, but the last bus from Liverpool left at 6.00 pm and arrived in Rhyl at 8.19 pm.

And this is, in my opinion another reason why the jury convicted him, his evidence was simply wrong and once someone is shown to have been wrong on a number of issues human nature says you start to doubt the rest of what they say.

Rightly or wrongly.

He said it was dark by the time he found accommodation (digs)

If the bus arrived at 8:19 and sunset was about 8:30 with dark just after 9:00 this seems plausible.

[NickB]

Larman, Walker and Vincent discussed on the thread here.

[Natalie Severn]

Graham,
I have photocopies in front of me of the rough notes taken by Kleinman within the hour of Hanratty changing his alibi,during his trial in Bedford, to say he took the bus to Rhyl.You are quite right about him being smartly dressed in Rhyl e.g. [as posted previously ]He is asked by Kleinman [his solicitor]what he was wearing in Rhyl-'the double breasted striped suit' he answered.[ Trevor Dutton described the clothing by the young man he saw who tried to sell him a gold watch in Rhyl as 'a dark jacket or coat with a light grey stripe'.
A little further down the page he is asked what he had with him and he answers " [I] left the little hyde leather case.Landlady about 50 like my mother [asked her] Could I leave the case I will pick it up later ?'

True it could have been anyone but when put together with the statements from other witnesses it appears to me to be Hanratty who Dutton saw.

[Victor]

10 other people came forward eventually to say they had seen him in Rhyl that day. Nobody ever came forward from Dorney Reach, Marsh Lane ,The Taplow Inn, or from around Deadman's Hill to say they had seen Hanratty .

Hi Nats,

I think that's exactly what you'd expect from a busy seaside resort, contrasted to 'out in the sticks'. But as you keep pointing out, the Rhyl evidence only consists of those really dubious, unreliable, eyewitness accounts.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Nats,

I think that's exactly what you'd expect from a busy seaside resort, contrasted to 'out in the sticks'. But as you keep pointing out, the Rhyl evidence only consists of those really dubious, unreliable, eyewitness accounts.

KR,
Vic.

Unlike William Nudds ,Roy Langdale ,Trower et al

[Natalie Severn]

G'day Spitfire




And this is, in my opinion another reason why the jury convicted him, his evidence was simply wrong and once someone is shown to have been wrong on a number of issues human nature says you start to doubt the rest of what they say.

Rightly or wrongly.



Re Time and timings---some information from the trial transcript:

If the bus arrived at 8:19 and sunset was about 8:30 with dark just after 9:00 this seems plausible.

[Spitfire, the two witnesses who believe they saw Hanratty in South Kinmel Street were Margaret Walker and her neighbour Ivy Vincent.


Here is a section from the trial transcript where Hanratty attempts to deal with Mr Swanwick's probing about Time.
Mr Swanwick:Q:Was it a single decker or a double decker [bus]?
JH A:It was a double decker bus
Q What time would it be?
A. This would be about half past seven.It might not be the exact time[VolX111,p.61]
When Mr Swanwick asked him about his arrival in Rhyl,hanratty refused even to guess the time:
Q,You told us when you arrived in Rhyl it was dark: is that right?
A.No, I did not say that.
Q What did you say?
A. I said it got dark towards evening.
Q.What time did you arrive in Rhyl?
A. I am not sure.It was August time.It don't get dark till late.
Q What sort of time would you put it? I will help you by telling you that according to my diary the sun set at Liverpool at 8.30
A. What in August?
A. At that time,21st August [sic 22nd]
A.Would it?
Q. Can you give us any idea of the time you got to Rhyl?
A.Off-hand I cannot.If I was to say a time it would not be fair ,because you would cross examine me and I am not sure of the exact time.
Q I only want an approximate time if you can give it.A, I could not because I did not time it [Vol.X1V,p.11]

[Victor]

Unlike William Nudds ,Roy Langdale ,Trower et al

Hi Nats,

I think you are getting confused here, Nudds and Langdale are not identification witnesses. Langdale knew he was talking to Hanratty as they were locked up together, and Hanratty himself admitted he stayed at the Vienna which Nudds confirmed.

Trower et al are identification witnesses, but their evidence was contemporary, whereas the Rhyl witnesses are reporting events at least 6 months afterwards, and in some cases nearly a decade later.

KR,
Vic.

[Spitfire]

So the only time mentioned by Hanratty was 7.30 p.m., which from the context above seems to be the time when he said the bus left Liverpool as he would not be drawn on the time of its arrival in Rhyl.

The time given by both Mr Larman and Mrs Walker for their respective meetings with Hanratty was 7.30 p.m. in both cases.

[NickB]

When Mr Swanwick asked him about his arrival in Rhyl, hanratty refused even to guess the time:
Q. You told us when you arrived in Rhyl it was dark: is that right?
A. No, I did not say that.

In answer to Sherrard, Hanratty had said that after arrival in Rhyl he enquired on five or six occasions to get bed and breakfast in the area eventually coming to a small private house with a ‘bed and breakfast’ sign.

Hanratty said: “It was dark at this time.”

He reiterated “it was dark” when he entered the house and could hear trains shunting.

So he didn't say it was dark when he arrived in Rhyl, but he did say it was dark when he arrived at the guesthouse.

[Natalie Severn]

Victor hang on- the Rhyl witnesses may have come along almost six months later when the trial was underway and they were reading about Hanratty in National newspapers again -about him going to Rhyl etc but thats not the case with Mrs Dinwoody, a most important witness who was interviewed within six weeks of the crime .Barbara her granddaughter and her friend Linda Walton remembering precisely that they were in the shop late afternoon on that Tuesday.

[Natalie Severn]

Nick,
[btw it gets dark quite suddenly on 22nd August in Rhyl around 8.55-9.05 pm whereas as 8.45 pm it is still light.]

Yes thats true. Also a crucially important Rhyl witness who came forward six years later was Mrs Betty Davies.Her baby had died days after being born in July 1961 and she herself had become ill.She didn't want to get involved in the case at the time but when six years later neighbours told her Mr and Mrs Hanratty wanted to talk to her about her recollection of sightings and times etc She agreed. She also made a statement .In her statement she says that she believes the man who called at her house in late August 1961 could have been James Hanratty .Betty Davies had been frightened when a young dark haired man knocked on her door late one August evening when she was alone except for her small daughter.At that time she and her husband ran a Boarding House next door to Ingeldene where Mrs Jones lived .At the back of her house there was an adjoining passage to her mother in laws house at 27 South Kinmel Street a tiny narrow street where two other Rhyl witnesses Margaret Walker at 12 and Ivy Vincent at number 23 lived .She hadn't liked the look of the young man because he was knocking on people's doors late in the evening -around 9 pm and didn't have a case with him.It was beginning to get dark by then.She suggested he go round the corner where he might find some vacancies.Shortly afterwards she decided to go and tell her mother in law Margaret Davies and ask her opinion on whether or not she should have taken him in. Margaret Davies wasn't alone. Margaret Walker had joined her and was able to tell them both an almost identical story but she was at Margaret Davies's house to ask her advice about her son who was being evicted from his house at the end of that week.On hearing about Betty's visitor Mrs Walker told them she too had been visited by a young man just a little while ago.They later learned he had called on Ivy Vincent too.

It seems likely they were all visited by the same young man.These meetings could not have taken place on 25th July because Betty Davies was in Chatsworth House nursing home , Prestatyn from July 20th to July 28th .
Betty Davies's statement was fully endorsed by Noel Davies her husband and her mother in law.The statements of Betty Davies, Margaret Walker, Ivy Vincent and Mrs Grace Jones are closely linked and had the jury heard them they would have found it difficult to dismiss them out of hand.

[Spitfire]

So it was dark when Hanratty got to Ingledene but was getting dark when he saw Larman/Walker/Vincent/Davies which would imply that he saw them before encountering Mrs Jones. But what had happened to his case?

[Natalie Severn]

So it was dark when Hanratty got to Ingledene but was getting dark when he saw Larman/Walker/Vincent/Davies which would imply that he saw them before encountering Mrs Jones. But what had happened to his case?

There was only one coach to Rhyl from Lime Street Liverpool ,Spitfire .I have been on it many a time .It had regular stops on way and I used to get off at Eastham.It was the kind of service which because it ran only once or twice a day would stop between stops if you put out your hand on its route .It left Lime Street at 6 o'clock and depending on traffic conditions got to Rhyl for 8.17.At 8.17 in Rhyl the sun is beginning to set . By 8.48pm the street lights have come on in Rhyl on 22nd August.Just after 9 pm its quite dark.

Regarding his 'little leather hyde ' case.In Kleinmen's notes ,taken down within the hour of him changing his alibi during his trial in Bedford and causing great concern as a result to his trial barrister, Michael Sherrard , he is asked what he was wearing and whether he was carrying his case and he immediately answers by saying that he had a case which he asked 'the landlady ' if he could leave it with her. Clearly this is because 'the landlady-who he says 'looked like his mother' has agreed to mind his case for him while he looks round to see if there are vacancies in other houses nearby.The young man seen by Mrs Walker, Mrs Vincent and Mrs Davies in nearby B&B's did not have a case which matches what he tells Kleinman.