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Mail's feature of 1999 on Hanratty by Roger Matthews

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Derrick View Post
    Hi Sherlock (sounds good saying that)
    That was Alphon...see paragraph 37 of the appeal judgement: it reads thus;
    HTH
    Del
    Thank you Del for clarifying this for me. I've often wondered if this mystery suspect could have been Alphon. Upon re-reading Bob Woffinden's fine book on the A6 murder he states the following about this Sept 7th incident (page 53).........."Although the London evening papers, which were always on sale from mid-morning, were creating the impression that it was all over, nothing more was heard from this suspect."

    It would seem from reading this that Woffinden, as late as 1999, was unaware that this Sept 7th suspect was Alphon.

    Is it possible that more than one suspect was interviewed that particular day ?

    .
    *************************************
    "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

    "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by GUT View Post
      G'day Derrick

      Can you please point me in the direction of the full appeal judgement I've only seen excerpts?
      Hi Gut
      Do I detect a slight Aussie twang in your salutation eh?

      Here is a link:
      http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/1141.html

      HTH
      Del

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
        Thank you Del for clarifying this for me. I've often wondered if this mystery suspect could have been Alphon. Upon re-reading Bob Woffinden's fine book on the A6 murder he states the following about this Sept 7th incident (page 53).........."Although the London evening papers, which were always on sale from mid-morning, were creating the impression that it was all over, nothing more was heard from this suspect."

        It would seem from reading this that Woffinden, as late as 1999, was unaware that this Sept 7th suspect was Alphon.

        Is it possible that more than one suspect was interviewed that particular day ?

        .
        Hi Sherlock
        From what I have read from the press articles in the period from the murder until Alphon walked into Scotland Yard on the night of the 22nd September the police interviewed and released God only knows how many people.

        In fact, the day after the identikit pictures were issued some 400 people contacted the police saying that they had seen the man!

        The discovery of the cartridge cases at the Vienna on the 11th September was never reported at the time. The police were obviously keeping that one very close to their chest. But what is not in doubt is that in the 10 days that followed Acott had decided that Alphon was their man and, unusually, named him as the man they wanted to talk to.

        So when Alphon was not picked out by anyone, the police, without any forensic evidence to go by, just went back to the Vienna Hotel.

        Now, call me old-fashioned, but if Hanratty really was the A6 Murderer what are the chances of stumbling across him completely by accident only because he had stayed at the same doss house as the police's previous, and only, suspect the night before him? Mind-boggling.

        As for Woffinden's lack of knowledge on this...no idea.

        Del

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        • #19
          Hi Del,

          Which one is it? They are mutually exclusive...
          Originally posted by Derrick View Post
          The discovery of the cartridge cases at the Vienna on the 11th September was never reported at the time. The police were obviously keeping that one very close to their chest. But what is not in doubt is that in the 10 days that followed Acott had decided that Alphon was their man and, unusually, named him as the man they wanted to talk to.

          So when Alphon was not picked out by anyone, the police, without any forensic evidence to go by, just went back to the Vienna Hotel.
          No forensic evidence or cartridge cases at the Vienna?

          KR,
          Vic.
          Truth is female, since truth is beauty rather than handsomeness; this [...] would certainly explain the saying that a lie could run around the world before Truth has got its, correction, her boots on, since she would have to chose which pair - the idea that any woman in a position to choose would have just one pair of boots being beyond rational belief.
          Unseen Academicals - Terry Pratchett.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Victor View Post
            Hi Del,

            Which one is it? They are mutually exclusive...

            No forensic evidence or cartridge cases at the Vienna?

            KR,
            Vic.
            I don't know, what do you think?

            Why did the cases in room 24 lead the police to Alphon and not originally J Ryan. Again...what do you think?

            Besides, they was never any other forensic evidence viz the car!
            Last edited by Derrick; 05-21-2014, 10:33 AM.

            Comment


            • #21
              Why did the cases in room 24 lead the police to Alphon and not originally J Ryan. Again...what do you think?
              Because further to Alphon's questioning after he was interviewed reference his conduct at The Alexandra Court, he freely admitted to the police that he had stayed at The Vienna on the night of the murder. However, it was soon established that he had slept in Room 6 at The Vienna, whilst a "J Ryan" had occupied Room 24.

              Even so, Alphon was placed on an i.d. parade reference the assault of Mrs Dalal, who picked him out, but two men who supplied him with copies of Old Moore's Alamanac which he sold, stated that he had been with them at the time of the assault on Mrs Dalal. Alphon was then taken to Guy's Hospital the next day and placed on an i.d. parade before Valerie Storie, who failed to pick him out as the A6 killer. That, to all intents and purposes, ended the police's interest in Peter Alphon who, however, stated publicly that he had been scared out of his wits following his voluntary surrender to the police at Scotland Yard (prior to which he had cannily informed the Daily Express what he was about to do.

              Hope this helps.

              Graham

              PS: only yesterday did I discover that I have been un-banned from the A6 thread. No-one told me that I had.
              We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

              Comment


              • #22
                Hi All, re Libel laws : I asked my friend-a childhood friend as it happens -who happened to have been a close colleague of Matthews in the force and is still a friend of Matthews .He has had a recent conversation with him about the case ---so I asked him why it was Matthews could not name names---quick as lightening he answered-'because of the laws of libel'.Now I happen to know who two of these people out of the three were from quite another source and two are now dead and have been for a long time -----but the third person has not been named which could suggest the person is still alive

                ps Hi Graham-yes I think everybody was surprised the bans have been lifted-good eh!
                Last edited by Natalie Severn; 05-21-2014, 04:20 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  G'day Derrick

                  What Aussie Twang

                  Thanks for the link to the appeal judgement, I'll work through it.
                  G U T

                  There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Graham View Post

                    Even so, Alphon was placed on an i.d. parade reference the assault of Mrs Dalal, who picked him out, but two men who supplied him with copies of Old Moore's Alamanac which he sold, stated that he had been with them at the time of the assault on Mrs Dalal.
                    This is something I find rather puzzling Graham. If, as Derrick states, Alphon was the unnamed suspect [in Woffinden's book] who was still at Cannon Row police station at 2pm on Thursday, Sept 7th, he could not have been Mrs Dalal's attacker. I say this because Mrs Dalal's assailant arrived at her home at 1.30pm that same day. It is my understanding that Mrs Dalal's home in Upper Richmond Road was over 6 miles away from Cannon Row police station in Whitehall, a journey of about 30 minutes or so. This would also suggest that the two men who said Alphon was in their shop in the City of London at the time of Mrs Dalal's attack were either mistaken or lying.

                    Something doesn't add up here.
                    *************************************
                    "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                    "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      The man questioned at Cannon Row police station on Sept 7th must have been someone other than Alphon. He arrived at the police station late on the 6th and was released (without charge) on the 8th.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Victor View Post
                        Hi Del,

                        Which one is it? They are mutually exclusive...

                        No forensic evidence or cartridge cases at the Vienna?

                        KR,
                        Vic.
                        In fact Victor, there was not any forensic evidence adduced by the prosecution in the original trial; just eye-witness and circumstantial evidence.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
                          This is something I find rather puzzling Graham. If, as Derrick states, Alphon was the unnamed suspect [in Woffinden's book] who was still at Cannon Row police station at 2pm on Thursday, Sept 7th, he could not have been Mrs Dalal's attacker. I say this because Mrs Dalal's assailant arrived at her home at 1.30pm that same day. It is my understanding that Mrs Dalal's home in Upper Richmond Road was over 6 miles away from Cannon Row police station in Whitehall, a journey of about 30 minutes or so. This would also suggest that the two men who said Alphon was in their shop in the City of London at the time of Mrs Dalal's attack were either mistaken or lying.

                          Something doesn't add up here.
                          Originally posted by NickB View Post
                          The man questioned at Cannon Row police station on Sept 7th must have been someone other than Alphon. He arrived at the police station late on the 6th and was released (without charge) on the 8th.
                          Hi Sherlock and Nick
                          Both of your points place the facts about Alphon's 7th September interview as given in the appeal judgement into some doubt.

                          As both of you say it is not possible for him to have been in two places at once; ie Cannon Row police station and the almanac wholesalers. I would tend to believe that the almanac sellers were correct and that Mrs Dalal was mistaken.

                          So it would seem that another error has been found in the judgement. It doesn't fill me with much confidence in the judges having much of a grasp of the facts of the case.

                          So that would also mean that Woffinden must have been right all along about this unknown man.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by NickB View Post
                            The man questioned at Cannon Row police station on Sept 7th must have been someone other than Alphon. He arrived at the police station late on the 6th and was released (without charge) on the 8th
                            According to Bob Woffinden's book this particular person was detained from 10.00pm Wednesday (the 6th) until just after 2.00pm the following day Thursday (the 7th).
                            The Court of Appeal judgement, unless it is in error here, has Alphon being interviewed [the second of three separate interviews] on Sept 7th 1961.This would seem to imply [unless other suspects were questioned the same day] that it was Alphon who was detained for 16 hours before being released shortly after 2.00pm.
                            *************************************
                            "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                            "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Derrick View Post
                              So that would also mean that Woffinden must have been right all along about this unknown man.
                              Especially when one bears in mind that Alphon doesn't seem to have made any reference to being subjected to a second police interview.
                              *************************************
                              "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                              "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                My Dear Houses (had to say that!),

                                I think the dates are getting a little confused here. To summarise, Alphon was interviewed at Blackstock Road police station on 27 August following the incident at The Alexandra Court, and then released (after giving the police details of where he was on the night of the A6 murder).

                                Mrs Dalal was attacked on 7 September. Whoever was being grilled in Cannon Row police station on that date almost certainly wasn't Alphon - he later referred to his interrogation at Scotland Yard (see below) but as far as I'm aware made no reference to any previous long interrogation.

                                From what I can gather, the police didn't bother with Alphon after 27 August until the cartridge-cases were found at The Vienna on 11 September. Alphon had freely admitted on 27 August that he had stayed at The Vienna on the night of the murder. They then searched for him, and visited his parents.

                                Following his naming by the police (to 'help them with their inquiries'), Alphon voluntarily walked into Cannon Row police-station at about 11.30pm on 22 September, and taken to Scotland Yard about an hour later. After a long interview he was placed on i.d. parades the next day, reference the attack on Mrs Dalal and also to enable Valerie Storey to see him - when she failed to pick him out. Alphon was ruled out of the A6 investigation but remanded in custody ref: the Dalal attack, but freed when his alibi checked out. It seems that Alphon was held in custody until 29 September when he was released on bail. ll charges against him were dropped on 3 October.

                                Graham

                                PS: is anyone else finding this website very slow at the moment?
                                We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

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