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Eddie, you state as 'fact' that Hanratty had 'never been inside a humble Morris Mionor'. How on earth can you possibly know this as 'fact?'
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There was certainly no evidence adduced by the conscientiousness Mr Sherrard that Hanratty had driven a Morris Minor, nor does there seem to have been any evidence that he had actually been in one. Do you say different?
If Hanratty had had experience of the marque, I am sure that we would have heard about it.Comment
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The debate about the Morris Minor is a curious one for anyone who knows anything at all about cars.The Morris Minor shares with the old mini the honour of having been the most basic,simplest engine on the road -and an extremely easy simple car to drive.
Hanratty could drive a number of cars as testified in the John Lennon film by his very pretty girl friends who he took out in several different cars he had 'borrowed' [to put it euphemistically]---and not one suggested he was anything other than a competent driver.Comment
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What cars had Hanratty driven between leaving prison in March 1961 and getting behind the wheel of 847BNH in the early hours of 23 August 1961 and on which occasions had he driven them? And what evidence was given at the trial on this?Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
I can only find reference to a black Consul being stolen by Hanratty and Terry in July 1961 which led to the latter being arrested in Shrewsbury town centre while the former ran away. When on his own, Hanratty, the supposedly accomplished car thief, travelled by hitch hiking from lorries or by public transport. He went from Shrewsbury to Newport, from there to Cardiff, both by lorry; Cardiff to Liverpool by lorry and then Liverpool to Rhyl by bus.
When the Jag was stolen in October 1961, Hanratty again had an accomplice with whom he separated in Manchester where the stolen Jaguar was found. Hanratty again when on his own was reduced to travelling by public transport and had to get a train from Manchester to Liverpool.
From the above we can conclude that Hanratty stole cars when assisted by an accomplice (or perhaps that should be the other way round), when Hanratty was left to his own devices then his preference was for public transport or hitched lifts. The reason for this is not far to seek when we look at what happens when Hanratty was legitimately in possession of a motor car, to wit the Irish hire car and the Sunbeam, he crashed them. And what happened to 847 BHN? It got crashed.
The two cars which we know that Hanratty did drive, rather than the accomplice driving, both suffered damage in a fairly short period of time. The same happened to the Morris Minor.Comment
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Please try to get your facts right because everything in his story about the car theft was checked by police and defence.Originally posted by EddieX View Post
Neither prosecution or defence have ever claimed Hanratty had an " accomplice " when he stole the black Mark V11 Jaguar from Hallam Street near Portland Place, Great Portland Street, just behind BBC Broadcasting House on the evening on 6/7 October .He took the registration number of the dashboard,and dashed to see a man he knew who had a garage in Soho where he bought a key to fit it -I can supply further details if need be .
In fact Hanratty's account was verified down to the last detail by Kleinman including his description of its floor gear change,overdrive and maroon upholstery.
There was never any claim by anyone other than you that he had any 'accomplice' so please don't muddy the waters further---lets just keep to what has been recorded about this event.
Hanratty drove this car ,on his own ,from London to Manchester on the evening of October 6/7 1961 .
This alone supplies all the evidence needed that he was quite expert at such 'ventures' and could drive cars with quite sophisticated mechanics-he was a car thief for goodness sake. Also the evidence given by several of his friends about being taken out in expensive cars plus the lifts and drives into the countryside in the Sunbeam Sports car e.g. Louise Anderson,witness for the prosecution and several girl friends named at the trial [the evidence by the girls is provided by Paul Foot in the John Lennon film entitled "Did Britain Murder Hanratty? " where Foot interviews those girls each of whom testified at the trial apparently.[I hope to be able to provide a 'you tube 'clipping from the film in the next month or so ]Last edited by Natalie Severn; 11-25-2012, 03:16 PM.Comment
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for EddieX Some Information about Leo McKinstry ..........!!!!!
Leo McKinstry the article claims is well known for not checking his facts and for presenting "Fact as fiction and fiction as fact!Last edited by Natalie Severn; 11-25-2012, 03:30 PM.Comment
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More on Leo McKinstry---famous for peddling nonsense without any requirement to provide evidence for his bigotry---he is of course quoted with approval by the BNP !
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Have more on this man who,it appears is happy to 'make up quotes'---and there is a particularly famous one where he misquotes Herbert Morrison........Comment
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A competent driver wanting to go to Liverpool would have driven all the way to Liverpool, not just to Manchester. Hanratty had to train it from there. Hanratty's modus operandi was to have an accomplice when thieving cars. I believe that Hanratty and friend parted company in Manchester, with the latter left in possession of the Jag. He (the accomplice) probably bought the Chesters Ales which were found in the Jag's boot, and had not intended to abandon the car when it was found.
For one reason or another, there was little point in Hanratty shopping his mate and partner in crime, and to the police it probably seemed unimportant in the overall scheme of things.Comment
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We've been over this ground in another thread in which I had posted a link to a report of Sherrard addressing a City of London Law College after the Court of Appeal's decision and in which he is reported as saying "..the wrong man was not hanged." Whatever else Sherrard may have thought of the original trial and verdict, after the Court of Appeal's decision he has satisfied himself that the wrong man was not hanged.Originally posted by Natalie Severn View PostComment
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[QUOTE=Natalie Severn;247373]http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/tag/leo-mckinstry/[QUOTE]
For those on casebook interested to know the background on the man who is credited with the unsourced,undated quote alleged to have been made by Michael Sherrard QC RE ' the wrong man not being hanged ' ---I have supplied a few links----apparently this Leo McKinstry hack is absolutely notorious for issuing a long list of "unverifiable quotes"including one about Herbert Morrison so outrageous it was the subject of a prize giving for anyone who could find any source for it whatsoever ---and guess what------ The prize has never been claimed!!
Have more on this man who,it appears is happy to 'make up quotes'---and that is a particularly famous one where he misquotes Herbert Morrison......Last edited by Natalie Severn; 11-25-2012, 04:10 PM.Comment
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Look its absolutely fruitless and meaningless to keep on issuing 'alleged quotes' such as this unless you can provide the a LINK to a FULL STATEMENT ? Can't you see how a 'quote" such as this needs to be dated ,contextualised ,substantially sourced ?Can't you get his Autobiography for pity' sake written in 2009 and find out exactly what he thought about Acott,Oxford and the lies,fiddling and altered statements he talks of etc etc ?Just presenting this meaningless 'quote' does nothing to further the debate -its just shoddy researchOriginally posted by EddieX View PostComment
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Originally posted by Natalie Severn View Post
I gave you a link on another thread
my post is 174.
Sherrard has definitely been reported giving talks in which he has said the wrong man was not hanged. He may have thought that Acott and Oxford did not play the game in the original trial, and may still believe this but that is a different point.Comment
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That link is not available now for some reason .I want to know the name of the reporter-its important-an anonymous quote is useless as anyone can make anything up they feel like and have it bandied about.I need to be able look it up and cross reference it and whoever it was who reported it.Originally posted by EddieX View PostI gave you a link on another thread
my post is 174.
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Hi Eddie, everyone is entitled their opinion and I'm new to the forum but from what I've read there are some well reasoned and researched arguments both ways. My Dad was a bit of a " Jack the lad " before he settled down and he grew up in Wembley, not far from where JH knocked about. My Dad was never a thief but was a regular at the local dance halls and used to frequent the West End as well. He'd never heard of JH until it happened. One thing he did say that struck me was there was a lot more " respect out of fear " for the Police back then, in his words " if they wanted you or to solve something, they would do whatever to get a result "......that is from someone who was a young man in those days who also got in trouble but more for fighting over girls in bars etc.
I have experienced Police collusion I'm sure when I was a Special constable back in the day, people who had just dealt with an incident all sitting together in one corner of the collator's office or the parade room with pocket notebooks out and writing statements together, I'm not saying they are all liars but there was collusion I'm sure and it no doubt happens to this day. You only have to look at the Derek Bentley case for more evidence of altered statements, gaps in evidence, Police "lingo " or way of taking and writing a statement to make it look like the prisoner had said that to them to strengthen what the jury "needed " to hear on the day.
In the documentary from 1992 by Wolfenden I'm sure there is a bit in there that says there are boxes of papers that the crown will not release into the public domain for fear by doing so it would endanger living people.....who may they be then ?........I don't believe JH was the murderer, that's not to say he may not have had some involvement somewhere in the crimes but acted with others and they used him as the fall guy and again I believe there's enough evidence within those boxes of paperwork that the crown won't release to show that. Langdale grassing him up and an uncorroborated conversation in a prison exercise yard why would he want to do that ?......The France woman's testimony in court....old man France topping himself just before the execution....why would he do that ?......coz JH was sleeping with his daughter ?....anyway again, just my opinion, cheers.Comment
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