A6 -location of scene and 2nd appeal

[Natalie Severn]

At last Pete I think I can give you some specific information:

inventory from Forensics [Lewis Charles Nickolls-met police lab]

from DC B*** [Bedfordshire]

under property from scene:
1. six cartridge cases.
2. One bullet
3.Three bullets and piece of bullet casing
-
-
-received from Detective Sergeant A****** [Barkingside ]24th August 1961
29.Morris Minor car 847 BHN
-
30.Bullet from floor
31 Bullet from glove pocket
-
-
on 25th August I [Nickolls] received from Det Constable B*** [Bedfordshire ]Constabulary:
34.Bullet recovered from bank

1st September from Det Sgt L*** [City of London Police]

35.Number of boxes of .38 ammunition,wrapped in a piece of material

on 25th August from Det Sgt P****** [Peckham]
36. .38 revolver containing six rounds of ammunition
37. one handkerchief
38. five boxes of ammunition
------
11th September 1961

[X Division Harrow Road]
42 Envelope containing two cartridge cases found in Vienna Hotel *

rest pertains to Alphon-pillow case/blood /saliva/etc

hope this helps!

[Graham]

Here is a photo of the actual gun-a .38 enfield revolver
Incidently-the conductor in question referred to in this piece is now thought to have been the conductor of the Lime Street to Rhyl Crosville bus whose statement has never been released to the public by Merseyside police and was never disclosed at the trial.
It was assumed the lady who stood up in court saying "ask the conductor of the bus" was referring to the 36A bus as this was in the minds of many at the time but it is being disputed by recent researchers who believe it is the conductor of the 6pm Lime Street to Rhyl double decker Crosville Bus which left at approx 6pm on 22/08/61 and who made a statement to police which was apparently never disclosed about a passenger on his bus answering to the description of James Hanratty in close detail and the description included his unusual ,streaky hair colouring and his dark suit.This statement apparently still resides with Merseyside police and is still not available to the public.

JH almost certainly travelled by bus from Liverpool to Rhyl on his previous, documented, visit to Rhyl. I suspect that any statement made to the Merseyside police concerning a passenger who may have resembled JH referred to this earlier visit and bus-ride.

The (untraced) lady who stood up in court and shouted something about the bus-conductor was, it has long been assumed, referring to the possibility someone other than JH planted the gun on the bus. This, I suggest, is not unlikely - I said ages ago that 'if' France had supplied JH with the gun, then after the A6 tragedy it may have been a case of JH threatening France with retribution unless he, France, got rid of the gun. Could be that France was seen planting the gun on the bus. Or that someone who didn't resemble JH was seen planting the gun.

The conductor or conductress referred to by the 'unknown lady', assuming it was the 36A bus being referred to, was Ms Pamela Patt (odd name) and I don't think she was called upon to give evidence at either the trial or the appeal. She did, though, make a statement to the effect that she recalled nothing unusual or noteworthy during the journey. So, if she was the conductress the 'unknown lady' was referring to, it's meaningless. Unless Ms Patt did see something which she didn't disclose in her statement, something that the 'unknown lady' knew. We'll never know.

Could you please identify the 'recent researchers' you mention?

Keith Simpson made a simple error when he described the bullets removed from VS as being .32 calibre. I believe he acknowledged this error.

Graham

[Limehouse]

Does anyone else think it is strange that a killer would travel all the way from the murder scene in a car full of his victim's blood with the gun still in his possession? If it was always his intention to rid himself of the gun after the crime, why take it all the way to London and risk being caught with it? There must have been countless places he could have stopped and disposed of the gun in the early hours of the morning in a remote spot with no one much about.

If you consider the witness statements of those who believe they saw Hanratty driving erractically near to Redbridge, would a killer really be so reckless as to be seen swerving across lanes, grinning madly at fellow drivers in a car splattered with blood and a gun in his possession?

[Graham]

Hi Julie,

yes, I do and always did think it strange that the car should have been driven all the way from Bedfordshire back to Greater London. To coin a phrase, "if I'd been the killer", I think I might have driven towards the nearest railway station (Flitwick, Bedford, wherever) left the car somewhere where it wouldn't be immediately found, eg undergrowth, disposed of the gun there and then - in a pond, undergrowth, wherever - walked to the station and headed back to London by train at a leisurely pace. But as I've never abducted people, killed one of them, raped and shot the other, I don't know how my mind would have worked in such circumstances. JH's entire life seems to have been disjointed and random and irrational, so it could be his No 1 priority was to get back to places and people he knew, perhaps with the idea in mind of an alibi.

As to his driving, it's a fact that at some point the car was battered, not badly, but battered nevertheless, and I rather get the picture of a desperate, frightened, and irrational driver at the wheel. Not necessarily an inexperienced driver, I hasten to add - otherwise he may never have made it to Greater London. Maybe he was very lucky to get all the way to Redbridge, via whatever route he took. Maybe he felt less insecure in the car than by taking his chances via a combination of walking and public transport. However, he must have felt confident that he could make it back to what he saw as security, as to be involved in a collision in a blood-spattered car, with a gun in his possession, would potentially have spelled disaster.

Graham

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,
JH's entire life seems to have been disjointed and random and irrational .
Graham

...... so much so he never left a fingerprint,a hair,a fibre from his clothing or anything whatever that linked him to the car itself........maybe he was wrapped in ectoplasm!

[Graham]

As was Alphon, France, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh or anyone else you might fancy as the A6 killer!

He did, though, leave two bloodstained cartridge-cases....

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Graham,
I am not at liberty to divulge the name of my contact regarding the Lime Street to Rhyl Crosville bus conductor's statement of 22/08/1961. The statement apparently remains with the Merseyside police. I would be surprised if it relates to the bus conductor from the earlier visit Does anyone know if the bus conductor of the 6 pm Lime Street to Rhyl Crosville bus of 22/08/61 was ever contacted by journalists?

[Natalie Severn]

As was Alphon, France, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh or anyone else you might fancy as the A6 killer!

He did, though, leave two bloodstained cartridge-cases....

Graham

Who did? They were most certainly not stained with JH's blood!

[Graham]

You what?

Graham

[Graham]

Graham,
I am not at liberty to divulge the name of my contact regarding the Lime Street to Rhyl Crosville bus conductor's statement of 22/08/1961. The statement apparently remains with the Merseyside police. I would be surprised if it relates to the bus conductor from the earlier visit Does anyone know if the bus conductor of the 6 pm Lime Street to Rhyl Crosville bus of 22/08/61 was ever contacted by journalists?

If I did, I wouldn't tell you......

G

[Natalie Severn]

You what?

Graham

No hair,no blood,no fibres nothing at all was found that linked Hanratty to that motor car" Michael Sherrard QC May 2002

This is astonishing -impossible-that if it was Hanratty he left no trace of himself in that car---and yet there were others fingerprints,Valerie's and Gregsten's 'fibres etc

[Natalie Severn]

Graham, I will be asking if I can quote my source here [re Crosville Liverpool to Rhyl bus of 22/08/61]---if I can I will let people know,if not its best forgotten for the time being.

[Graham]

No hair,no blood,no fibres nothing at all was found that linked Hanratty to that motor car" Michael Sherrard QC May 2002

This is astonishing -impossible-that if it was Hanratty he left no trace of himself in that car---and yet there were others fingerprints,Valerie's and Gregsten's 'fibres etc

Let me repeat what I've stated many times in the past - if there was nothing, not one solitary forensic detail - that linked Hanratty to the car, then we must assume that there was nothing to link anyone else other than MG, VS and other 'legitimate' users, such as MG's aunt who actually owned the car.

VS said that Hanratty wore gloves, so it is assumed there were no fingerprints of his found (and before someone reminds me that he used to say he never wore gloves when house-breaking, I am aware of this). However, what I find astonishing is that no fibre, hair or soil from his shoes in the car. How come? If he cleaned the car afterwards, which has been suggested, how come he left two cartridge cases? Forensics in 1961 were advanced enough to locate and identify fibre, hair, etc. Even Sherlock Holmes nailed a wrongdoer via soil on his shoes. This is, I say again, one of the most perplexing aspects of the case. Unless, of course, the police....no, I won't go there!

Does anyone, by the way, know what became of the car?

G

[propatria27]

At last Pete I think I can give you some specific information:

inventory from Forensics [Lewis Charles Nickolls-met police lab]

from DC B*** [Bedfordshire]

under property from scene:
1. six cartridge cases.
2. One bullet
3.Three bullets and piece of bullet casing
-
-
-received from Detective Sergeant A****** [Barkingside ]24th August 1961
29.Morris Minor car 847 BHN
-
30.Bullet from floor
31 Bullet from glove pocket
-
-
on 25th August I [Nickolls] received from Det Constable B*** [Bedfordshire ]Constabulary:
34.Bullet recovered from bank

1st September from Det Sgt L*** [City of London Police]

35.Number of boxes of .38 ammunition,wrapped in a piece of material

on 25th August from Det Sgt P****** [Peckham]
36. .38 revolver containing six rounds of ammunition
37. one handkerchief
38. five boxes of ammunition
------
11th September 1961

[X Division Harrow Road]
42 Envelope containing two cartridge cases found in Vienna Hotel *

rest pertains to Alphon-pillow case/blood /saliva/etc

hope this helps!

Natalie - great work!

To summarise:

1. 6 cartridge cases found at scene of the shooting - consistent with the gun being emptied and reloaded

2. 5 (6 if you conclude the piece of bullet casing was not from one of the other 5) bullets found at the scene of the shooting - one in the bank, 3 others (no information where found) and one piece of bullet casing (probably caused by round missing VS and hitting concrete) and one just listed as a bullet (no further information)

3. 2 bullets found in the car - these must be the ones that killed MG - so they didn't fly out of the window as has been suggested previously (posts from 2008)

4. 2 bullets were removed from just under VS's skin in hospital on 23 September 1961

5. I make that 9 (or 10, see 2. above) bullets recovered from 10 that were fired according to VS - so, quite possibly, all, or parts of all, the bullets were actually recovered.

6. The gun, when discovered on the bus was fully loaded - therefore the gunman added 2 (or 3, see below) rounds to the chamber at some point after the shooting (6 were fired - 2 into MG, 4 into VS, then a reload, 1 more into VS (she had 5 bullet wounds), then 3 missed her. But I actually think only 9 rounds were fired - I believe that after reloading, the gunman did fire 3 shots at VS, but one hit her although she didn't realise it at the time due to the paralysis that had already taken effect.

I would still like to see the forensic report carried out on the gun and bullets/cartridges to ascertain how it was conducted and what the conclusions were.

Regards,

Pete

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Pete,
I may be able to get hold of that report but not for a few weeks.
Will study your post later!