A6 -location of scene and 2nd appeal

[Natalie Severn]

I'm sorry to say, but the whole Charles France as the gunman scenario does not work for me. I have not seen one witness statement that gives the gunman's or car drivers age as more than 30 - France cannot be mistaken for anyone of that age and I think his very receding hairline would have been pointed out by at least one witness,

Pete

Hi Pete,
I didn't say he was the gunman.Louis Blom- Cooper wrote about the possibility of him obtaining the gun.
With regards to the witnesses---which ones do you mean? There were two who claimed to have seen the driver of the MM at Redbridge roundabout at 7 am.One of these said the driver looked nothing like Hanratty,the other identified him though he didn't have the same view. Michael Sherrard proved that the third witness who claimed to identify Hanratty could not possibly have seen him properly and his work mate who was waiting for him said he was not even there at that time [Paddy Hogan].
Even worse - there were people living or leaving an identical MM at 8.15 each day in Avondale Crescent.These witnesses claimed the car was never there at 7 am was not there in fact until the evening.Two of these-Margaret Thompson and Doreen Milne gave statements to the police which were withheld.This is important and was considered at the 2002 appeal to be the 'high water mark of non-disclosure'.
Valerie Storie altered her description of the killer on 31st August but the identikit she had helped to compose shows a man with a longish ,oval face,which Hanratty did not have -he had a box shaped face , a clear, high straight hairline [which Hanratty did not have he had a widows peak], a thin aquiline nose,which Hanratty did not have his nose was short and turned up slightly , hooded eyes,which Hanratty did not have,and above all Valerie must have selected from the photofit slides DARK eyes-not light blue ones!
Valerie suffered a terrible ordeal that she in no way deserved to be put through and neither did Michael Gregsten.She was immensely brave and certainly did her best with great courage and calm .But she said herself she did not see the man's face properly and caught only a fleeting glimpse when in the pitch dark the headlights from a passing vehicle lit up his face-but after two weeks she told Acott that even this memory of his face was fading and crucially she went on to identify,positively another man, Michael Clark a volunteer line up man.If this were today she would not be allowed to make a second identification after making a first.The rules today are very much stricter in other ways too ---hesitation is not permitted .Valerie took at least 15 minutes to identify Hanratty and the usual time she is said to have taken to identify him by his appearance and Cockney accent is twenty minutes.That would not be acceptable today.
Sop actually there are no witnesses from the trial who are without difficulties

[propatria27]

Sorry, I thought someone was saying France was the gunman? That is what I was replying to. There is only one person who stated someone looked like Tafler, and that depends on the last film they saw him in - it could have been 20 years before or the previous week and he would have looked different in both.

Pete

[Limehouse]

This is now getting rather silly, I'm sorry to say. I'll discuss and debate and argue any [I]rational[I] theory or idea about the A6 Case, but not this.

Graham

Hi Graham,

I'm not suggesting France was the gunman, just that he looks rather like the man seen in the afternoon by Foggerty-Wall - except I don't think that man was wearing glasses.

[Natalie Severn]

Fogarty- Waul ,who saw the chap ,said he looked like 'the then popular TV star ,Sidney Taffler 'So Taffler would have been 45 or 46 years old, France would have been 42 years old and Alphon 31 years old-quite a big age gap.
Blom -Cooper claims that Charles Dixie France had 'for some years been mentally unstable,suffering from acute depression.The doctor who treated him said "he had rarely seen a man in such a depressive stupor as France"
Blon -Cooper adds:'he had always lived on the fringes of the criminal underworld, having himself done time in prison"Blom-Cooper adds:

"This familiarity with the criminal underworld is an important factor in attempting any understanding of France's later depressions and mental breakdown"

He had been admitted to hospital several times between being a witness at Ampthill [committal].....and in January only three days before the trial began,he was admitted to Hammersmith hospital after being found in a room with the gas turned on.........he was in a highly agitated state -would not talk,although he acknowledged questions by nodding or shaking his head.He was admitted to the hospital at 4 am in the morning: four hours later he made another suicide attempt by trying to jump out of the hospital window after which he was sent to Horton Mental Hospital for observation.
The day he gave evidence at the trial he was flanked by two nurses who accompanied him throughout.

I certainly have not ruled out a France involvement though I do not see him as the gunman.
For me those like Badin Skitt and Roger Matthews two highly respected experienced senior policeman leading a team of 20 investigators appointed by Scotland Yard who insisted,after seeing files with witness statements etc that none of us have ever seen or had access to,that James Hanratty was innocent, then I accept their conclusion. When Paul Foot asked Badin Skitt after the DNA evidence 'allegedly' provided 'overwhelming proof' of Hanratty's guilt what he thought he said-'there must be something wrong---Hanratty was innocent of that crime!

[Natalie Severn]

Regarding the findings of Chief Superintendent Roger Matthews I came across this report in the Independent:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...t-1364434.html

The report which has never been made public, to anybody's knowledge,apparently makes it quite clear that Roger Matthews found substantial indications that more than one person was involved:

Viz quote: Although no details have been revealed, Ch Supt Matthews has intimated to people close to the case that his verdict is that Hanratty was wrongly convicted. His report is also likely to shatter the belief that just one person was involved in the killing

[Natalie Severn]

re post by Stevo 7395-

you mentioned you had great respect for Baden Skitt who was Chief Constable of Hertfordshire before he became Assistant Commissioner of Scotland Yard.Baden Skitt became gatekeeper to the Court of Appeal.
When ,after the Matthews Report was completed in 1996 ,the case was referred to the criminal cases review commission in 1997 their inquiries were led by Baden Skitt.All the inquiries pointed to Hanratty's innocence.Right at the end ,the commission carried out DNA tests connected with the murder.In April 1998,a further swab was taken from Hanratty's mother.Michael Hanratty,Jim's brother,and his wife Maureen remember going to the old lady's bedside with Mr Skitt to take the swab.

She remembers Baden Skitt saying:"Your brother was innocent -we just can't explain the DNA ."

[propatria27]

Regarding my post no 55, I note Natalie stated 2 empty catridge cases were found at the scene and we know about the 2 in the Vienna Hotel, but does anyone know full details of what was found at the scene i.e. where, by whom, what happened to them, do they still exist etc. , or in the car when it was abandoned?

Pete

[Natalie Severn]

I thought the whole thing about the car in 2 cornfields was a little odd when I re-read BW's hardback copy, hence the reason I raised this in the first place. If they were parked in the first field in Huntercombe Lane South, but left due to being disturbed, then what was that disturbance. If they hadn't been disturbed, would the whole hijacking, murder and rape have happened?

Pete

This is a good question Pete----a re-reading of Blom -Cooper - sub-titled "The Semblance of Truth"-reveals a number of misgivings he had about the trial which he sat right through-in particular "the limitations on our knowledge of the crime'.
In his final chapter he points to ' France"s almost overweening guilt complex"and asks the terrible question -echoing in the minds of many since, "Did France ,in fact, play some part in the events that led to the killing on the A6 road?
Baden Skitt, Chief Constable of Hertfordshire and one time Assistant Commissioner of Police at Scotland Yard and Roger Matthews also a high ranking Police Officer who had been in charge of the 1996 Report for the Home Office,saw ALL the evidence from both back in 1961/62 and all that has come to light since , concluding Hanratty himself was innocent but also suggesting that from the evidence they had had access to more people appear to have been involved in the crime than was known or suspected at the time.
In the light of this I suggest the move from Huntercombe Lane may be significant-especially if somebody was keeping a watch on their movements.
I have been searching for the information on the cartridge cases-used and otherwise-hope to have the information you want in a day or two.

[propatria27]

Thanks Natalie - I look forward to what you can find about the evidence.
I was also reading some of the earlier posts (from 2008) and there was some discussion about when VS and MG might have had sex that night - my feeling is that happened in the first cornfield and that they had been away from the pub longer than originally thought, if the sighting of them in the first cornfield is correct - 9:45pm - then they had time, about 20-25 minutes, as the landlady of the pub said they left about 9:20pm. They may even have been there later than 9:45, as that was the time they were seen, not the time they departed. It could even have been the motorcyclist who disturbed them. Following that scenario through, it seems strange that, if they were followed from the pub, why they weren't held up in the first field as there would have been time and they were easy to spot from the road.

Pete

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Pete,
Valerie herself said they left the Old Station at about 'quarter to nine' and that it was 'twilight' when they arrived and got dark soon after.'The landlady of the pub Mary Lanz , the day after the murder,gave the police a time of 9.20 or 9.30.when they left the pub.
Sunset is about 8.08 and darkness follows about 35- minutes later on 22nd August [London ]---so Valerie and Gregsten may have left the pub about 8.30---but if this is so then there is rather a big discrepancy [an hour] between the couple leaving the pub and Mary Lanz's guess
Norma

[propatria27]

Some more information about the shooting and the sequence of shots - this is a quote from Prof Keith Simpson's book "Forty Years of Murder" about the shots that hit VS "On the following Sunday I went across from my Tring house to Bedford Hospital to examine Valerie Storie. She had similar calibre through-and-through wounds, one of the neck and four drilled-in holes in over her left shoulder and down over her arm. I thought probably all five shots, which were in a line, had been fired in quick succession and from beyond arm's range." He also states the wounds to MG were from a .32 calibre bullet. Now this does not make sense if a .38 gun was used, for the following reason:
MG was shot twice, then, according to KS's expert opinion, VS was shot 5 times in quick succession - that's 7 rounds, but the .38 only holds 6.

There are a number of .32 calibre pistols that fire 7 rounds that would have been available at that time.

Do we know if the murder weapon and the bullets extracted from VS are still available? I'd like to see them subject to today's techniques to see if the results are still the same.

Pete

[Natalie Severn]

Some more information about the shooting and the sequence of shots - this is a quote from Prof Keith Simpson's book "Forty Years of Murder" about the shots that hit VS "On the following Sunday I went across from my Tring house to Bedford Hospital to examine Valerie Storie. She had similar calibre through-and-through wounds, one of the neck and four drilled-in holes in over her left shoulder and down over her arm. I thought probably all five shots, which were in a line, had been fired in quick succession and from beyond arm's range." He also states the wounds to MG were from a .32 calibre bullet. Now this does not make sense if a .38 gun was used, for the following reason:
MG was shot twice, then, according to KS's expert opinion, VS was shot 5 times in quick succession - that's 7 rounds, but the .38 only holds 6.

There are a number of .32 calibre pistols that fire 7 rounds that would have been available at that time.

Do we know if the murder weapon and the bullets extracted from VS are still available? I'd like to see them subject to today's techniques to see if the results are still the same.

Pete

Pete,
I have found some information on the crime scene:

Six cartridge cases were found nearby the crime scene in Deadman's Hill

a further two blood spattered [spent] cartridgeswere found on the floor of the Morris Minor where it was found in Redbridge [this is only in accordance with one report so must double check that they were not unused cartridges


The gun found late on the evening [8.45 pm approx] of the 24th August 1961 by Edwin Cooke a London transport cleaner ,was a .38 Enfield revolver hidden under the seat of a 36A bus along with 5 boxes of ammunition totalling 60 rounds in all were found on the bus -and- according to press reports with some loose bullets.

[Natalie Severn]

Here is a photo of the actual gun-a .38 enfield revolver
Incidently-the conductor in question referred to in this piece is now thought to have been the conductor of the Lime Street to Rhyl Crosville bus whose statement has never been released to the public by Merseyside police and was never disclosed at the trial.
It was assumed the lady who stood up in court saying "ask the conductor of the bus" was referring to the 36A bus as this was in the minds of many at the time but it is being disputed by recent researchers who believe it is the conductor of the 6pm Lime Street to Rhyl double decker Crosville Bus which left at approx 6pm on 22/08/61 and who made a statement to police which was apparently never disclosed about a passenger on his bus answering to the description of James Hanratty in close detail and the description included his unusual ,streaky hair colouring and his dark suit.This statement apparently still resides with Merseyside police and is still not available to the public.

[propatria27]

Pete,
I have found some information on the crime scene:

Six cartridge cases were found nearby the crime scene in Deadman's Hill

a further two blood spattered [spent] cartridgeswere found on the floor of the Morris Minor where it was found in Redbridge [this is only in accordance with one report so must double check that they were not unused cartridges


The gun found late on the evening [8.45 pm approx] of the 24th August 1961 by Edwin Cooke a London transport cleaner ,was a .38 Enfield revolver hidden under the seat of a 36A bus along with 5 boxes of ammunition totalling 60 rounds in all were found on the bus -and- according to press reports with some loose bullets.

Thanks Natalie. Just for clarification, a single round of ammunition consists of the cartridge case (containing the propellant) and the bullet, which actually leaves the gun. So what you are saying is there were six cartridge cases found at the scene of the shooting and 2 bullets in the car?

Pete

[Natalie Severn]

Sorry to repeat Pete
the account I am using just says 'five boxes of ammunition and some bullets'
In the car there were two spent cartridge cases blood stained alongside two clots of blood.