A6 -location of scene and 2nd appeal

[propatria27]

Julie, we don't know that the gunman didn't have a bag, only that VS didn't see one - unless someone on here knows differently. It is possible that he had it in the back of the car, possibly on the floor, and the only time, that I know of, that she was in the back was during the rape.

Pete

[Limehouse]

Julie, we don't know that the gunman didn't have a bag, only that VS didn't see one - unless someone on here knows differently. It is possible that he had it in the back of the car, possibly on the floor, and the only time, that I know of, that she was in the back was during the rape.

Pete

Hi Pete,

That quite possible but how likely is it that the gunman would have carried all of that ammunition around with him, whoever he was?

I'm still baffled that the whole lot was not dropped in the Thames!

Julie

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Pete,

That quite possible but how likely is it that the gunman would have carried all of that ammunition around with him, whoever he was?

I'm still baffled that the whole lot was not dropped in the Thames!

Julie

More particularly Julie-he then parked the car miles over to the far East of London -close to Redbridge tube station and not long after 7.am leaving the murder car entirely without any trace of him---not blood/hair/ fibres or finger prints-not a trace in the car itself ---though it still had blood and bullets in it from the dead man.
No time to change-- just after 7am he clambers out of it--- still in his murder clothes so still with blood on him----and makes for the tube presumably Dick Whittington style with a big piece of cloth containing 5 boxes of ammunition and a gun-sits on the tube for about an hour crossing London to Lancaster Gate on Central Line from Redbridge ---to put the big bag of ammunition somewhere safe while he hangs around that area for 24 hours emerging at a 36A bus stop on 24th August-this time with James Hanratty's easily identifiable hankie wrapped around the big heavy packet of five boxes of ammunition and a gun all ready to be placed under the back seat of the top deck of a bus exactly where James Hanratty had told Charles France two and a half weeks before was the place he used to hide things---.....

oh I forgot---after he had pointedly asked the ex convict/police informer William Nudds [of the 11 aliases]asst manager of the Vienna Hotel for directions to Queensway and been told to get on the 36A bus at the end of the road. Nudds told police this on 15th September 3 weeks after the 36A bus had made headlines in national newspapers because of the gun being found there!

[propatria27]

I know I'm repeating myself, but we actually have what appears to be an uninvestgated fact here, that, 8 days after the crimes, a Det Sgt in the City of London Police hands in to the Met Police Crime Lab several boxes of .38 ammunition and a piece of cloth. I cannot understand why that would be, other than they were found by someone in the City of London Police area and were considered to be of evidential value. I don't know who dumped them or when, but there would have been statements taken from the person who found them and the police officers who handled them, that is standard procedure. I would like to learn more, but the only way to do that is to get a copy of police documentation, including the forensics report that Norma said she might be able to facilitate.
If this is proved to be linked to the actual crimes then it may be inferred that someone did travel across London carrying a large handgun and several boxes of ammunition, and took two fairly big risks in dumping them in public places (I'm, of course, assuming the City finding was a public place).

[propatria27]

I know I'm repeating myself, but we actually have what appears to be an uninvestgated fact here, that, 8 days after the crimes, a Det Sgt in the City of London Police hands in to the Met Police Crime Lab several boxes of .38 ammunition and a piece of cloth. I cannot understand why that would be, other than they were found by someone in the City of London Police area and were considered to be of evidential value. I don't know who dumped them or when, but there would have been statements taken from the person who found them and the police officers who handled them, that is standard procedure. I would like to learn more, but the only way to do that is to get a copy of police documentation, including the forensics report that Norma said she might be able to facilitate.
If this is proved to be linked to the actual crimes then it may be inferred that someone did travel across London carrying a large handgun and several boxes of ammunition, and took two fairly big risks in dumping them in public places (I'm, of course, assuming the City finding was a public place).

Regards, Pete

[propatria27]

Sorry about the double post - the wonder that is the iPad,

Pete

[Limehouse]

Yes, it is all difficult to take in Norma!

I have just been looking at a map of the location of Deadman's Hill in relation to Redbridge, where the car was found.

It seems, to have ended up in Redbridge, the killer travelled mainly in a south easterly direction (possibly keeping to the minor roads). Now, if he travelled for a distance down the A1 (a busy route, but only two lanes back then, with plenty of turn offs and most of it being entirely rural) he could have taken in Knebworth.

Keeping to this south but easterly route he may have driven via Ware and then picked up the old A11 and then A12 to bring him to Redbridge. He COULD have picked up the Central Line further north, at Epping but may have not known this.

It does seem odd that if the killer was Hanratty, he was prepared to travel so far east with a bloody car, a gun and a shed load of ammunition and then, as you describe, stagger back across London with them to more familiar ground.

As a matter of interest, just round the corner from Redbridge Station is The George, a public house in Wanstead, formally run by the parents of Harry Roberts, who in 1966 was one of three criminals convicted of shooting dead three policemen in west London. Roberts was born in Wanstead and grew up there. In 1961, he was in jail, but had criminal associates in the area.

[Limehouse]

I know I'm repeating myself, but we actually have what appears to be an uninvestgated fact here, that, 8 days after the crimes, a Det Sgt in the City of London Police hands in to the Met Police Crime Lab several boxes of .38 ammunition and a piece of cloth. I cannot understand why that would be, other than they were found by someone in the City of London Police area and were considered to be of evidential value. I don't know who dumped them or when, but there would have been statements taken from the person who found them and the police officers who handled them, that is standard procedure. I would like to learn more, but the only way to do that is to get a copy of police documentation, including the forensics report that Norma said she might be able to facilitate.
If this is proved to be linked to the actual crimes then it may be inferred that someone did travel across London carrying a large handgun and several boxes of ammunition, and took two fairly big risks in dumping them in public places (I'm, of course, assuming the City finding was a public place).

Hi Pete,

You state that the articles were handed to the Metropolitan Police Crime Lab 8 days after the A6 crime and the cartridges were of the same calibre, but do you think they were actually linked to the crime?

There were many guns swilling about London in those days and a good many armed robberies. The reason was that most business was done using cash (banks, shops, dog tracks etc) compared with these days where the big criminals opt for internet fraud.

Could it be that the ammunition and cloth found in the City was related to a crime carried out in the city (perhaps at a bank or one of the businesses around Smithfield Market) or perhaps it was stored for later collection by a criminal/gang who intended to carry out such a robbery?

Julie

[propatria27]

Julie, you will note that I did say "If this is proved to be linked to the actual crimes then it may be inferred that someone did travel across London carrying a large handgun and several boxes of ammunition, and took two fairly big risks in dumping them in public places (I'm, of course, assuming the City finding was a public place)."

I'm also aware of what London is like as I believe you and I are near contemporaries in East London. I was born in 1957 in Bow and lived in London until 1977 when I joined the RAF. Even now I still visit relations in the East End.

But why were these boxes of ammunition and that cloth sent to the Met Police Crime Lab and entered in Dr Nicholls evidence as part of the A6 crimes and not entered as evidence in one of the other robberies/thefts that might have taken place in the City?

The only way of knowing that is to see the documentation that will have arrived with it.

Pete

[Limehouse]

Julie, you will note that I did say "If this is proved to be linked to the actual crimes then it may be inferred that someone did travel across London carrying a large handgun and several boxes of ammunition, and took two fairly big risks in dumping them in public places (I'm, of course, assuming the City finding was a public place)."

I'm also aware of what London is like as I believe you and I are near contemporaries in East London. I was born in 1957 in Bow and lived in London until 1977 when I joined the RAF. Even now I still visit relations in the East End.

But why were these boxes of ammunition and that cloth sent to the Met Police Crime Lab and entered in Dr Nicholls evidence as part of the A6 crimes and not entered as evidence in one of the other robberies/thefts that might have taken place in the City?

The only way of knowing that is to see the documentation that will have arrived with it.

Pete

Hi Pete,

Sorry, I mis-read the bit that explained that Dr Nicholls had recorded this find as possible evidence in the A6 crime. It is a mystery, as you say, and one that does not seem to have been explored by other contributors.

Certainly, the person who deposited those ammunition 'dumps' took a huge risk. Perhaps they used a suitcase? That would not have looked suspicious (but opening it and depositing the contents would have done!). You have raised some very interesting issues.

Yes, we are contemporaries, born in the same year and living quite close to each other in the 60s and 70s. Sorry, I did not mean to sound patronising.

Julie

[propatria27]

No offence taken at all Julie - thanks for taking the time to reply,

Pete

[Natalie Severn]

I know I'm repeating myself, but we actually have what appears to be an uninvestgated fact here, that, 8 days after the crimes, a Det Sgt in the City of London Police hands in to the Met Police Crime Lab several boxes of .38 ammunition and a piece of cloth. I cannot understand why that would be, other than they were found by someone in the City of London Police area and were considered to be of evidential value. I don't know who dumped them or when, but there would have been statements taken from the person who found them and the police officers who handled them, that is standard procedure. I would like to learn more, but the only way to do that is to get a copy of police documentation, including the forensics report that Norma said she might be able to facilitate.
If this is proved to be linked to the actual crimes then it may be inferred that someone did travel across London carrying a large handgun and several boxes of ammunition, and took two fairly big risks in dumping them in public places (I'm, of course, assuming the City finding was a public place).

Regards, Pete

Hi Pete,
this is being looked into---it does seem to be an uninvestigated aspect of the case----I am waiting now to see if anyone has the results of doctor Nickoll's examination schedule
-and hello to JUlie---as I say will try to get back on this that Pete has raised
Cheers
Norma

[propatria27]

Hi Pete,
this is being looked into---it does seem to be an uninvestigated aspect of the case----I am waiting now to see if anyone has the results of doctor Nickoll's examination schedule
-and hello to JUlie---as I say will try to get back on this that Pete has raised
Cheers
Norma

A couple of other thoughts about the possible dumping of these boxes of ammunition and cloth:

1. How often were communal rubbish bins emptied in the City at that time - I'm specifically thinking of those in the street for everyone to use? Or possibly in a bin in one of the underground stations?

2. Were the items found in a hotel, although this is less likely in my opinion due to the 8 day gap between the crimes and them being handed in, presuming the police got them to the Met Lab straight away?

Pete

[Natalie Severn]

A couple of other thoughts about the possible dumping of these boxes of ammunition and cloth:

1. How often were communal rubbish bins emptied in the City at that time - I'm specifically thinking of those in the street for everyone to use? Or possibly in a bin in one of the underground stations?

2. Were the items found in a hotel, although this is less likely in my opinion due to the 8 day gap between the crimes and them being handed in, presuming the police got them to the Met Lab straight away?

Pete

Well you have got us all busy Pete---nobody has ever noticed this from what I can gather---but then these documents are held by the prosecuting police so its possible that they haven't been seen by all that many people yet.I am still waiting to know whether the results of his examination of these items are around.

[propatria27]

Bread and Water

I’ve been giving some thought to what the gunman said in the car, “He said he’d been locked up in a cellar for days, and been beaten and had bread and water”. (BW hardback 1997, page 7) I thought this was interesting, especially the bit about bread and water, so I’ve done some research.

This first article is by Professor Terry Morris, who was a prison visitor in the 1950’s, and spent 6 weeks in Maidstone Prison working in the laundry with James Hanratty (see Note 11). He also mentions punishments meted out to prisoners in Pentonville following a riot after the execution of Ronald Marwood in 1959 (see Note 18). The note states, “These at the time included such things as No.1 diet (bread and water), flogging and birching. Butler, as Home Secretary, routinely refused to approve these latter two, effectively outlawing them on a national basis.”
http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsletters/ma...lle.htm#_ftn18

I then did some further digging and found this document - The English Prison and Borstal Systems, first published in 1952 by LIONEL W. FOX, C.B., M.C. Chairman of the Prison Commission for England and Wales.
http://archive.org/stream/englishpri...78mbp_djvu.txt
It goes into much greater detail and the most significant section “Offences and Punishments”:

“Frequently an admonition to a prisoner is sufficient, but when punishment is necessary the Governor may choose from the following:
(a) forfeiture of remission of sentence for a period not exceeding fourteen days;
(b) forfeiture or postponement of privileges for a period not exceeding twenty-eight days ;
(c) exclusion from associated work for a period not exceeding fourteen days;
(d) cellular confinement for a period not exceeding three days;
(e) restricted diet No. 1 for a period not exceeding three days;
(f) restricted diet No. 2 for a period not exceeding fifteen days;
(g) stoppage of earnings for a period not exceeding fourteen days.
Where the misconduct is so serious or repeated that the Governor considers the punishments within his power inadequate, he may report the prisoner to the Visiting Committee, and he must do so if the offence charged is one of the following:
(a) escaping or attempting to escape from prison or from legal custody ;
(b) gross personal violence to a fellow prisoner;
(c) mutiny or incitement to mutiny;
(d) gross personal violence to an officer.”

Restricted diet No 1 is, “one pound of bread per diem with water. If given for more than 3 days, the first 3 days bread and water are followed by 3 days ordinary diet, then 3 more days bread and water, and so on, so that the maximum period of 15 days means 9 days bread and water and 6 days ordinary diet. A prisoner on this diet is not required to work, but may work in his cell if he so wishes.”
Restricted diet No. 2 consists of “ 8 oz. of bread with water for break- fast and supper, and 1 pint of oatmeal porridge, 8 oz. of potatoes, and 8 oz. of bread with water for dinner. If given for more than 21 days, it must be interrupted after 21 days by 7 days ordinary diet. This prolonged excess of carbohydrates is now regarded as unsatisfactory, and alternatives are under consideration.”

You will note that “escaping or attempting to escape from prison or from legal custody” is one offence that might lead to bread and water as is “gross personal violence to an officer”, which may include spitting in their face.

Regards,

Pete