A6 Rebooted

[Black Rabbit]

You must be the only person on the planet who doesn't know that they were lovers! I'll leave it to your imagination how his DNA got there.

Erm, I wasn't asking whether they were lovers or not

Read my question again in more detail.

[caz]

Aynone know exactly what part of the garmet the 'fragment' came?

Hi Black Rabbit,

I don't know exactly, but my hunch, given the whole point of retaining it in the first place, and the DNA results forty years later, is that it would not have been cut from a part of the garment that failed to boast the full set: semen from the only two males involved - lover followed by rapist - and vaginal fluid from the only woman involved - lover and rape victim.

Anything else is wishful thinking on a frankly silly level.

I have to wonder how many of Hanratty's supporters would be championing him today if they had known him personally, inside out. Where has the blind faith in this stranger's innocence, and another stranger's guilt, come from?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Erm, I wasn't asking whether they were lovers or not

Read my question again in more detail.

They found two types of semen in the knickers right after the crime, Black Rabbit, which they were able to blood type as group O and group AB. As Gregsten was AB and was Valerie's squeeze, it was concluded, rather reasonably in my view, that he had produced the AB variety while the rapist had added his group O to the mix.

Knowing that two types were involved here, one innocent and one guilty, they would need to have been cretins (not conspirators) not to make damned sure that the fragment cut from the garment for posterity boasted the requisite liquid evidence of the night's events. If they had wanted to mess with the evidence or conceal the truth they could have chucked the lot away - job done.

Love,

Caz
X

[Black Rabbit]

Hi Black Rabbit,

I don't know exactly, but my hunch, given the whole point of retaining it in the first place, and the DNA results forty years later, is that it would not have been cut from a part of the garment that failed to boast the full set: semen from the only two males involved - lover followed by rapist - and vaginal fluid from the only woman involved - lover and rape victim.

So, are you saying the the knicker fragment contained a mixture of two different semen deposits?

Did MG & VS actually indulge in sexual intercourse that evening prior to the assailants arrival?

Also, what source of Michael Gregstens DNA was used to compare with the samples found on the knicker sample for identification?

.

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=caz;165173]Hi Norma,

But he failed to incriminate himself! And how do you know beyond reasonable doubt that he did not make a completely bogus admission while the balance of his mind was disturbed? You are the one suggesting that he committed rape and murder while suffering from some psychotic episode!

Hi Caz, If Alphon was the A6 killer as he claimed on several occasions,I doubt he set off to Dorney Reach in an unstable mindset.However the gunman spent five hours talking non-stop and all we have access to are the few bits and pieces of that mindless chatter that Valerie was able to recall.Such non-stop chatter is indicative of a person about to tip over the edge into a paranoid psychotic "episode"----I worked with people with this illness and such jibberish is the first sign.Valerie acted brilliantly actually staying calm and attempting to break the 5 hour fantasy with the sort of down to earth comments she made.

Caz said:
If they had convicted a mentally unstable Alphon, in the absence of any forensic evidence or victim id, merely accepting some kind of unverifiable admission from him and never even suspecting Hanratty, you'd have been the first one to cry foul, you know you would. Yet that is precisely where you are going here at a rate of knots.


Yes Caz, so be it.I am sure I would have been horrified if he had been convicted and had hanged as a result,without any real evidence.


Caz said:
Turn this round and ask yourself why any DNA from mere handling, including secondary transfer after the event, eg to the knicker fragment from the fly of Hanratty's trousers, should have shown up, while the primary transfer of the rapist's semen during the crime itself must have vanished without trace, from the same fragment.

Caz, I don"t accept any of their claims about how Hanratty"s DNA came to be on the cloth. I mistrust them , there is nobody from the defence who has ever been present to verify their claims since 1961.

Caz said:

The one thing they would have known not to do, even in 1961, was to allow a sample of their suspect's semen anywhere near the rapist's semen, if the object was to compare the two. The only reason I can think of for scraping semen from Hanratty's fly would have been to compare it with the rapist's semen on the knickers.

Caz---this is clearly where you and I disagree about what went on in police stations.Think again about the lengths that were gone to to set up Colin Stagg.

Caz said:

Or is your argument now that none of this matters because they simply made up the DNA results from whole cloth and didn't even bother testing the fragment of cloth? In which case, I don't suppose it matters whether they sensibly kept a bit with the two semen types present or threw all that away and only retained a piece from the untouched part of the garment that was no good to man nor beast.

No Caz,my argument is that we don"t know what went on, neither the defence or any members of the public were present when things were being "examined" and tested by prosecution "experts" in police labs so we simply don"t know.

Caz said

When objectivity flies out of the window, all common sense and reason can so often follow suit. Show me that's not the case here - with something solid to support these very serious allegations about the way this case has been handled since day one, by the various individuals working independently.

Caz, it is for the prosecution to prove guilt .

Best
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

You want us to believe (without evidence, so this really would be 'on faith'!) that they made a balls-up (excuse the pun) on this monumental scale, yet Hanratty's defenders at the appeal just had to sit there, sadly shaking their impotent heads and admitting it had been a fair cop after all? Pull the other one, Norma. Anything like that would have been leapt on with delight if there had been a half decent chance that it had accounted for the damning appearance of the DNA results.

Love,

Caz
X

No balls up Caz-----just the same old story ---from October 1961 to 2002 and as it all followed strictly formal procedures set up by the prosecution nobody could say anything much at all!

[RonIpstone]

Aynone know exactly what part of the garmet the 'fragment' came?



I'm slightly confused. Given the various accounts of the events taht took place on that fateful August evening/night in '61, at what point, what form and exactly by what method did Michael Gregstens DNA find its way inside Valeries knickers?

Am I missing something?

The Court of Appeal deal with this at paras 110 et seq.

[Natalie Severn]

Exactly. Showing contamination did not occur. Unless you are suggesting the contamination process was also discriminatory and decided only to let elements of Hanratty's DNA to participate in the sneaky contamination and eradication process that so many disparate groups of poor old Jim haters took part in.

Ofcourse contamination could have occurred.How do you think Valerie"s undergarments were taken to the police lab for forensic testing?The police took them there ---and quite possibly they were sneezed on by someone in the process---who knows or would ever know---or dropped fag ash on them in the handling process---this was long before DNA sterility clothing was worn by police, don"t forget.
In another post you make a point about the gloves nurses, practising in 1961, would have worn.I question that,Jen.They may have done but we do not know for sure.No doubt they washed their hands and scrubbed their nails but I doubt they wore gloves unless required to give someone an enema or an internal examination.
Also ,I was quite shocked to read how cavalier the police were in the hospital where Valerie was being treated.They smoked incessantly when they were questioning her even though they were asked several times to stop by medical staff.

[caz]

Time for me to bow out again. There is only so much banging one's head against a brick wall one can take, when there is absolutely no evidence that the wall is ever going to be willing or able to consider that any of the professionals involved may have had anything but base motives, crooked morals and sinful souls.

I pity anyone who feels this way and I do wonder how they managed to accept the guilt of Napper, for example, or of anyone else for that matter, where two or more suspects were at one stage involved in the process of determining guilt.

I really should have known better.

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

Caz,
I am sorry that you feel like this-but I must admit that the feeling that you are banging your head against a brick wall is par for the course here .But heck-you can only be true to yourself -no matter what others may say or think.
Best Wishes,
Norma

[jimarilyn]

Caz,
I am sorry that you feel like this-but I must admit that the feeling that you are banging your head against a brick wall is par for the course here .But heck-you can only be true to yourself -no matter what others may say or think.

I think I've got a slight indentation on my forehead Norma due to one too many head-bangs against a brick wall.

You've submitted an impressive series of posts with many pertinent points having been made.
I feel you're absolutely spot-on in your assessment of Alphon and how he uncannily fits the A6 murderer's profile. In oh so many ways, from his misogynistic tendencies (his dear mum Gladys excepted) all the way through to his all-consuming need for an audience to listen to his ideas/beliefs.

5 or 6 hours of endless chatter in a Moggie would pose no problem for the garrulous Alphon. For the under-educated Hanratty it would be impossible.

It's a great pity that the quietly spoken Alphon was never asked to say "Be quiet will you I am thinking" by Miss Storie on his ID parade.


"Maybe it's all phwee." (PLA interview with ITN's Alan Hart, Paris, May 1967.)

[RonIpstone]

It's a great pity that the quietly spoken Alphon was never asked to say "Be quiet will you I am thinking" by Miss Storie on his ID parade.


"Maybe it's all phwee." (PLA interview with ITN's Alan Hart, Paris, May 1967.)

It's an even greater pity that Hanratty's last brief went on record as saying Alphon was not the murderer. You'll have to live with that.

[caz]

I'm sorry but I really must say one more thing here.

If I see any more crocodile tears being wept over poor Hanratty's unfair trial and conviction, at the hands of a wilfully corrupt and biased justice system, by the same people who would act as judge and sodding jury, forensic examiner, criminal profiling expert, you name it, and convict a supposedly mentally ill Alphon in a heartbeat - sans trial, sans evidence, sans anything remotely incriminating - I think I will be physically ill.

The hypocrisy here is breathtaking, but what makes it worse is the fact that you just can't see that what you are doing here is every bit as monstrous as what you are accusing the establishment of doing!

"It's okay, we are entitled to point the finger at Alphon because he pointed it at himself."

No it's not okay - not if you're accusing someone of rape and murder on nothing more than his own say-so, then judging him mentally fit while committing the crime and confessing to it, but mad as a box of frogs at other times.

Love,

Caz
X

[jimarilyn]

No it's not okay - not if you're accusing someone of rape and murder on nothing more than his own say-so, then judging him mentally fit while committing the crime and confessing to it, but mad as a box of frogs at other times.

Methinks you need to reacquaint yourself with the now closed A6 thread. There's a mountain of written material on there which points very strongly to Mr Alphon being the A6 murderer. I don't need to rely on Alphon's confessions that he did it.......Just to be going on with for now.......

Dead ringer for Storie's identi-kit photo. His greased back hair dovetails perfectly with Storie's original description of the murderer's hair. The smell of Brylcreem in the car must have been quite strong.
Original police prime suspect.
His hiding out in the immediate aftermath of the crime at the Alexandra Caught Hotel.
His extremely suspicious behaviour there.
His sleeping rough in the 2 days prior to the crime.
His presence in room 24 of the Vienna Hotel.
His knowledge of the Slough area.
His knowledge of the Kingsbury area (near to where the road-works were).
His knowledge of the Northolt area.
His propensity for violence.
His being a very poor driver.
His resemblance to Michael Clark.
His age at the time of the murder was 30, exactly the age that the gunman was supposed to be.

[Derrick]

It's an even greater pity that Hanratty's last brief went on record as saying Alphon was not the murderer...

Hi Ron

It is a pity and shows that neither Evison nor Mansfield knew that noone can be excluded from a LCN profile. That is why it isn't suitable for evidential purposes in the USA and the overwhelming majority of international justice systems.

Derrick