Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A6 Rebooted

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Derrick View Post
    But there is certainly some disagreement among the various witnesses, disclosed and non-disclosed over when the car was first seen abandoned.
    I find it difficult to decide who is correct. Putting aside Trower/Skillett/Blackhall, the evidence appears to be as follows:


    Witnesses for an ‘evening’ arrival

    Margaret Thompson went to the shops with her 3 year old son at about 5.30pm and returned at about 5.45pm. She says the car was only there on her return, which she remembers because it was obstructing the pavement. If her recollection is accurate, this pinpoints the car’s arrival time.

    Doreen Milne was not actually a local resident but a London commuter who used the road as a convenient spot for free parking near the station. She says that when she parked her Morris Minor there at about 8.15am there was no car opposite in the position where the murder car was found.


    Witnesses for a 'morning’ arrival

    Doris Ahoe saw the Morris Minor parked at about 7am and on the two or more occasions that she later passed up and down the Crescent. It has been suggested that what she saw was Doreen Milne’s car, but she ‘recollected the interest shown by the police’ in the car so she knew which was the murder car and where it was positioned.

    Paddy Hogan, who gave evidence at the trial, says the Morris Minor turned into Avondale Crescent some 20 minutes before Trower arrived. He says he saw the car parked there that afternoon and again in the evening when the police were there.

    Mr. S. Lawrence of Avondale Crescent noticed the Morris Minor parked there at 7.45am.
    Last edited by NickB; 07-10-2014, 09:01 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Derrick View Post
      Hello John

      You seem to be suggesting that the car was dumped in Avondale Crescent on the 24th August. The car was discovered by police, after being alerted by Alan Madwar, on the evening of the 23rd; the same day as the murder.
      I stand to be corrected here Derrick but I think John has inadvertently added the word 'after'. I think the phrase should have read as follows.........."what and where was the car doing/during the actual day before left in Avondale".

      With reference to who and what Skillett and Trower claimed they saw that Wednesday morning, it's noteworthy, I feel, to realise that both men admitted that they had forgotten all about these insignificant and everyday traffic incidents for a full 24 hours. It was not until the morning of the 24th when their memories were jogged by police inquiries that they told their stories. A full 7 weeks was to elapse before both of these prosecution witnesses were to pick out Hanratty, whose vividly orange coloured hair stood out like a carrot in a bunch of bananas, thus making it obvious to all and sundry who the police's suspect was.

      For anyone who hasn't seen the 43 minute 1966 Panorama documentary about the case you can view it and download it via the link below. Amongst other things the interviews of 'Paddy' Matthew Hogan and James Trower make fascinating viewing. I know who comes across [to me anyway] as being the more trustworthy witness. I'd imagine a body language expert would have a field day examining Trower's nose touching.

      http://www.roughjusticetv.co.uk/hanrattyfilm.htm
      Last edited by Sherlock Houses; 07-11-2014, 08:21 AM.
      *************************************
      "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

      "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

      Comment


      • I agree that Hogan comes across as more believable.

        If Sherrard had been informed about Thompson & Milne (as he should have been) would he have called them as defence witnesses instead of Hogan?

        He couldn’t lump together the evidence of Thompson/Milne with that of Hogan; they contradicted each other. He would have needed to choose between them.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sherlock Houses View Post
          I stand to be corrected here Derrick but I think John has inadvertently added the word 'after'. I think the phrase should have read as follows.........."what and where was the car doing/during the actual day before left in Avondale".
          Houses my dear fellow, I was just adding together the 'after' with John's claim that Hanratty's movements were well timetabled and came up with the 24th.

          I see what you are saying but it would need John to completely clarify his argument.

          As for the Panorama programme, I wouldn't trust James Trower one inch. Hogan does seem very articulate but I feel that even he is wrong about which car he saw that morning.

          Del Boy

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Derrick View Post

            As for the Panorama programme, I wouldn't trust James Trower one inch. Hogan does seem very articulate but I feel that even he is wrong about which car he saw that morning.
            Ditto, except that I wouldn't trust him one millimetre, especially bearing in mind some of the tell-tale things he said in that Panorama interview.

            What I find interesting about Hogan is that he said he goes by the day not the date. So on the Thursday morning [the 24th] when Trower was stopped and interviewed by police, Hogan would have known that the previous morning Trower had arrived at his flat later than usual and not seen the Morris Minor Hogan claimed to have seen about 15 minutes earlier. There does however appear to be some confusion and contradiction on Hogan's part comparing what he said at the trial in 1962 and what he said in front of BBC cameras in 1966. In 1962 he said he had not even had a glimpse of the Morris Minor's driver [Paul Foot book p128] yet in 1966 he could say with some certainty that he could see the driver distinctively and that as far as he could remember he was dark haired and clean shaven.

            I find it almost impossible to believe that the murder car could have been parked for almost 12 hours on Avondale Crescent before being discovered.
            It was the height of summer and it would have meant tons of children and adults walking past it without anyone noticing the blood splattered driver's seat and bent bumper. I don't think so.
            Last edited by Sherlock Houses; 07-11-2014, 11:06 AM.
            *************************************
            "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

            "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

            Comment


            • 'The Secrets of my Tragedy' by Valerie Storie

              Just read the first article by Valerie in Today magazine (2-June-1962).

              There is not really any information on the case as it is mostly about the affair with Michael.

              There is a photo of Valerie returning to the entrance of the cornfield, and one of Michael in a V-neck jumper. Are these in any of the books?

              Here are a couple of extracts, setting the scene at Dorney Reach:

              ‘I felt very close to Michael. The August dusk was drawing us together in our own private world. There is something utterly private and rather magical about a motor-car when you are in love.’

              ‘Occasionally a tug of wind bustled against the windows and the car gave a little tremble. And then, so unexpected and so alien that I remember startling with surprise, came a tap at the window.’

              Then it says ‘Next week: My twenty minutes of revenge’. I assume this refers to the passage, quoted on the original thread, where she implies deliberately delaying identification in the Hanratty ID parade because she wanted to make him suffer.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by NickB View Post
                Paddy Hogan, who gave evidence at the trial, says the Morris Minor turned into Avondale Crescent some 20 minutes before Trower arrived. He says he saw the car parked there that afternoon and again in the evening when the police were there.
                Hi Nick,

                If the car "circled the block looking for a parking spot" or something similar, then that removes any reason to say Hogan contradicts Trower.

                KR,
                Vic.
                Truth is female, since truth is beauty rather than handsomeness; this [...] would certainly explain the saying that a lie could run around the world before Truth has got its, correction, her boots on, since she would have to chose which pair - the idea that any woman in a position to choose would have just one pair of boots being beyond rational belief.
                Unseen Academicals - Terry Pratchett.

                Comment


                • Perhaps Swanwick should have thought of that!

                  Personally I think it an unlikely scenario. Doreen Milne said there were parking spaces at that end of the Crescent every weekday.

                  In any case the jury did see a conflict, as after Hogan’s evidence they recalled Trower.

                  Incidentally it appears that contemporary photos (e.g. post 493 on the original thread) purporting to show the entrance to the cornfield are wrong.

                  At the real entrance there was a large wooden gate which fastened on the left and opened inwards. Adjoining the gate was a wicker-type fence. Upon entering the field, there was a fence (wire with wooden posts) on the left going straight ahead from the gate.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Victor View Post
                    Hi Nick,

                    If the car "circled the block looking for a parking spot" or something similar, then that removes any reason to say Hogan contradicts Trower.

                    KR,
                    Vic.
                    Hi Vic

                    That is a fair point Vic but you could probably have seen a fair few grey Minors on any road in the country at any particular time in 1961. About a million of them (admittedly not all grey) had been made by then.

                    Crucially though, not one of the so called 'Redbridge Witnesses' took down the registration number of the car that they said that they saw.

                    Del

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NickB View Post
                      ...Perhaps Swanwick should have thought of that!..
                      Why do you say that?

                      I ask because Blackhall said, at the committal, that he identified the murder car. Not by reg# perhaps but by the red strips on the bumper and the torn green label on the back window.

                      But did Blackhall actually see the murder car? Skillett and Trower seem to believe that they saw the driver as Hanratty. Blackhall contradicts the identification of Skillett absolutely.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Derrick View Post
                        Crucially though, not one of the so called 'Redbridge Witnesses' took down the registration number of the car that they said that they saw.

                        Del
                        Most surprising isn't it ? Both Skillett and Blackhall had ample opportunity to note the easily remembered 6 digit registration number of the car they saw. This would suggest that the road rage Skillett felt at the time was a fleeting thing and soon forgotten. One only has to see any of the numerous TV documentaries about road rage to realise how commonplace it is and always has been. It is not a new phenomenon.
                        *************************************
                        "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                        "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Derrick View Post
                          Why do you say that?
                          Good question.

                          Reading the Appeal summary of Trower and Hogan again, it appears that they both claim to have seen the car park.

                          Trower: “turned into Avondale Crescent where it stopped.”

                          Hogan: “turn into Avondale Crescent and come to a halt.”

                          The car was parked fairly near the entrance to the Crescent, so I suppose it makes sense that someone who saw the car turn into the road would also see it stop there.

                          Comment


                          • For what it's worth, the car's registration was spotted by a Mr Allan Medwar who saw the Morris at about 6.45pm, parked half on the pavement. Mr Medwar reported this to the police, who quickly identified it as the murder car. It was also damaged - the front number plate was bent backwards, and the rear bumper was dented, both symptomatic of a driver of Hanratty's standard.

                            Woffinden believes that the car had not been in Avondale Crescent during the day, but had been parked there not long before Mr Medwar noticed it. From what I can make out, Woffinden bases this on sightings of the car in various parts of the country during the day, and its recorded mileage.

                            Personally, I have always felt that the testimonies of Trower, Hogan and Skillett to be highly questionable - not to suggest by any means that they were making it all up.

                            NickB,

                            I've visited the cornfield (and the surrounding area) twice over the years, and I believe you are right about the entrance. The photo in Foot's book shows no posts or fencing at all, and I think based on information I was given years ago that this photo is definitely not the entrance, unless the posts and fencing were installed some time after Foot's photo was taken. It's an easy mistake-a to make-a, as there are (or were) several gates into that field along Marsh Lane. In Foot's book, he also says that a local resident was so fed up with seeing cars in the field (presumably gently rocking on their suspensions) that she got her husband to put up a gate. Possibly, but as I said there is or was more than one gate anyway, and unless this person's husband owned the field, what right had he to put up a gate? On the old boards, a gent called Steve posted an excellent photo of the entrance, along with many others of A6 Case scenes.

                            BTW, if you walk across the field down to the Thames, that's more or less the stretch of the river used for rowing events at the 2012 Olympics.

                            Graham
                            Last edited by Graham; 07-15-2014, 02:20 PM.
                            We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                              a gent called Steve posted an excellent photo of the entrance
                              Agreed. In the ‘cornfield entrance’ debate I think Steve was correct and the photo in post 524 on the original thread (Page 53) shows the scene a few years ago.

                              To me, there are two things that make Hogan more believable than the others ...

                              First, he saw the police around the car in the evening so would know if it was the same one he saw parked in that awkward way earlier.

                              Second, he was a reluctant witness. Presumably he did not want to contradict his friend. He had not even made a statement to the police, as at the time his wife was expecting and had asked him not to get involved.

                              Swanwick: You are telling lies, aren’t you?

                              Hogan: I am not. I am on oath here and I am not telling lies.

                              Swanwick: And now why have you suddenly decided to tell Mr Kleinmann what you have not told the police?

                              Hogan: Well, Mr Kleinmann caught me in yesterday afternoon unexpectedly and there was nothing much I could do about it.

                              Comment


                              • There is no evidential statements that are known about excpeting Trower and Hogan that place the car being there at 7 in the morning. And indeed Trower and Hogan disgareed about what and who they actually saw. The Police took statements from a lot of the residents, not just from Avondale Crescent. Matthews saw these in his enquires but never made available and regrettably at the Appeal hearing, the Defence did not seek to pursue the car busines as thoroughloy as they shoukd have donhe. Sherrard was of course not aware of the statements even from Doreen Milne. Hanratty could not have driven the car there to be there late afternoon as he sent a telegram on Wednesday evening 2040 from Liverpoool to the France's. of course he could have caught the famous plane back again which Acott. and Swanwick suggested. Of course that does not preclude Hanratty from being the murderer, but it suggests strongly that he could not have delivered the car to Avondale Cresecent. And also what did the resident's statements not revealed say? You can bet that if they had claimed to seen an Hanratty look alike etc they would have been produced for the Prosecution. It is an assumption but I bet they support the car was not there in the mnorning scenario.

                                We then come to the statements of the bus conductor on the Liverpool/Rhyl day. These have never been made available by Liverpool Police at the time (now Merseyside). of course who became CC of Merseyside. Why one Sgt Oxford as he was in 1962 when the bag man of Acott. I wonder why they have never been available and still sit in the depths of Liverpool Police. Again if the conductor had said something negative against Hanratty, or even there was no one with dyed hair on the bus that day, they would have been produced. Oxford was not going to sanction anyone getting permission to see these statements. Even now, only a Court can actually make a Police force produce these. The CCCR do not have the powers to insist to a Police Force they give all evidence ie statements to them.

                                I have again always felt that Foot etc were wrong in an assumption that when the 'elderly woman' stood up in the original Appeal hearing' and shouted ask the Bus Conductor etc, it was the 36A Conductors. I feel not. I think that the reference she was making was to the Liverpool/Rhyl bus. Foot and even Wolffenden were working blind in many respects. Non Disclosure of all statements still haunts this case. And if you, be it the Police or even Defence hide statements then it must lead to distortions of the actuality of the truth.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X