A6 Rebooted

[Limehouse]

Hi Limehouse,

But this is merely idle speculation that leads you nowhere, since you now need actual evidence that the real A6 killer was not hanged before he could commit any more crimes. There is nothing to suggest that anyone escaped justice for this one.

Love,

Caz
X

No, I'm not speculating Caz I am still responding to your comment a few posts back in which you wrote:

You both seem to be missing my point. If Hanratty didn't commit this crime, the person who did was evidently able to control himself sufficiently well mentally and physically for the rest of his life, not to do anything as mad or dangerous again, and not to say or do anything for the rest of his life that would have given the game away about his involvement in the A6 case.


I am simply pointing out that the killer need not have carried out a very similar type of crime, but may have carried out crimes just as mad and dangerous, long after Hanratty was hanged for the crime, but was never identified as the A6 killer.

Obviously there is no evidence, because that would involve identification, but it cannot be ruled out, even if there are a lot of people who believe Hanratty was the guilty man.

[Limehouse]

I think Alphon's lies to the police ought to be put into perspective. After the manager of The Alexandra Court complained to the police about Alphon's crazy behaviour (following Acott's plea to hotels and lodging-houses), the only 'authentic' lie he told to the police was to give a false name and address (Frederick Durrant of Horsham) per The Alexandra's guest-book. Shortly aftewards, at Blackstock Road Police Station, he gave his real name and his parents' address. He also gave them some personal information, none of which seems incorrect or even exaggerated. On being instructed by the police to do so, he re-registered at The Alexandra using his real name and his parents' address.

Obviously Alphon's interview was part of the A6 investigation, but there is no evidence to suggest that Alphon suspected this, or that the police told him. He told them freely that he'd stayed at The Vienna on the night of 22 August again, one assumes, without linking that to the A6 investigation. The police saw no problems with what he told them, and let him go.

Only when the cartridge cases were found at The Vienna on 11 September did Alphon's name become linked to the A6 investigation. Once the cases were identified as being fired from the A6 gun, the police naturally wanted to know who'd stayed at The Vienna during the critical period, and since, and of course up came the name of Frederick Durrant, a.k.a. Peter Alphon, once more. Juliana Galves said in her first statement that Durrant/Alphon arrived at The Vienna at about 11.30pm and left the next day at about 12.10pm. Her subsequent statement was slightly different - she now said she never actually saw Alphon. Doubtless she was 'encouraged' to say this by DS Acott, who was by now desperate to locate a feasible suspect for the A6.

Alphon's identity was made public, his mother was interviewed, and he gave himself up on 22 September when after advising 2 newspapers what he was about to do he walked into Scotland Yard and asked for Acott. Alphon said he had met his mother during the evening of 22 August and she gave him a suitcase. However, she then said that Alphon had not visited his parents' home for about 2 months and this was taken to blow his alibi apart. Unfortunately for Acott, Alphon had said that he had met his mother in the street at or near Gleneagle Road and had not gone to the house because he didn't get on with his father.

More on this later - got to go!

Graham

With respect Graham, I think you have left out a rather important part of the process concerning Alphon as a suspect. he was placed on an identity parade and he fitted the original description of the killer.

Regarding his role as a liar, what about his 'confessions' in the years following Hanratty's execution? Either he was telling the truth, in which case he was gulity, or he was telling lies, in which case he is obviously a liar.

Hope you and Mrs Graham have a very good weekend!

[caz]

Hi All,

I think Nats has missed the point in the past when she has argued that it would have been harder in Hanratty's mind to support a true Rhyl alibi than a false Liverpool one. This implies that he weighed up the pros and cons before being asked for an account of his movements and chose a lie in the mistaken expectation that his criminal associates would not only back him up but be believed, without a shred of proof. If this is the case he must have had no faith whatsoever in any of the good people he met and conversed with in Rhyl to place him there.

Again this makes no sense whichever way you look at it - unless Rhyl was another lie, told in desperation when the first lie failed to help him. Even if nobody had come forward, his stay in Rhyl could not have been exposed as a lie if he was really there and had simply stuck to this account. The jury would then have had to heed the judge's warning that Hanratty didn't need to prove he was in Rhyl as long as the prosecution could not prove he wasn't. And he may just have got away with it.

Love,

Caz
X

[louisa]

Obviously Alphon's interview was part of the A6 investigation, but there is no evidence to suggest that Alphon suspected this, or that the police told him. He told them freely that he'd stayed at The Vienna on the night of 22 August again, one assumes, without linking that to the A6 investigation. The police saw no problems with what he told them, and let him go.

Alphon said he had met his mother during the evening of 22 August and she gave him a suitcase. However, she then said that Alphon had not visited his parents' home for about 2 months and this was taken to blow his alibi apart. Unfortunately for Acott, Alphon had said that he had met his mother in the street at or near Gleneagle Road and had not gone to the house because he didn't get on with his father.

Graham

Regarding your two above paragraphs:

I feel fairly certain that Alphon would have known, probably by being informed by the police, that his interrogation was in connection with the A6 investigation.

Alphon's alibi was later found to be false.

[caz]

Caz - You have totally missed the point of my post. Read it again:-

Caz - in your post #1196 you wrote:

"That's an extraordinary thing to claim, Louisa. How are you remotely qualified to judge what sort of person typically commits a thankfully all too rare crime like this, and how they are likely to behave afterwards?"

I could equally ask you the same question because your last paragraph states::

"Hanratty behaved in exactly the way a desperate, but not very bright criminal would have behaved after committing a desperate, not very bright one-off capital crime."

My point is the question itself. I'll explain. You take me to task for making a judgment with no 'qualifications', yet you yourself keep doing exactly that! (presumably with no qualifications).

My qualification is common sense, Louisa. Think about what I said about the guilty party being obliged to lie by definition if they put in a plea of 'not guilty'. A guilty Hanratty would have been obliged to lie too, but not an innocent one.

Get it now?

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

Peter Alphon was hauled in twice for police questioning over the A6 murder .The first time followed concerns about his suspicious behaviour at the Alexandra Court Hotel and it was on 27th August ,three days after the murder that he was taken in for questioning and released when his mother [who lied] told police he was with her on the night of 22nd August.This was followed by a statement on 6th September that Juliana Galves made implying she had taken details from him on the night of 22nd August at the VIenna Hotel----which she did not-nor did she see him that night .
On 13th September , immediately after the spent cartridge cases were found in the VIenna Hotel Juliana Galves made her 2nd statement to police,in which she retracted saying she had not seen him or taken any details as it was her night off on 22nd August and she did not see him until noon on 23rd August---which left Alphon without an alibi -until that is William Nudds made his 3rd statement on 25th[?] in which he admitted lying to "help the police".In his third statement he said he had been telling a pack of lies throughout a 7 hour police session at Scotland Yard.......!!!!!
Police meanwhile issued a description of Alphon and called the press and media and named Alphon publicly as their prime suspect-which was extraordinary as it had never been their practice to do so -and launched a nationwide murder hunt for PETER ALPHON which resulted in Alphon giving himself up to Scotland Yard late on 23rd September 1961.
It was only when Valerie Storie mistakenly picked out Michael Clark as her rapist and not Alphon---later admitting to Michael Sherrard in court that she thought at the time that Clark had 'looked like Alphon'-----that the police began to lose interest in Peter Alphon,

Lets get the sequence right and the seriousness of the police hunt for Alphon in the third week of September.
Newspaper clippings are available and have been collected by JS Marilyn on the huge nationwide hunt the police put out for Alphon between 19th and 24th September 1961 as well as their naming of Peter Alphon in the press and on other media as their prime A6 murder suspect.I can obtain them via him if need be.

[caz]

With respect Graham, I think you have left out a rather important part of the process concerning Alphon as a suspect. he was placed on an identity parade and he fitted the original description of the killer.

Regarding his role as a liar, what about his 'confessions' in the years following Hanratty's execution? Either he was telling the truth, in which case he was gulity, or he was telling lies, in which case he is obviously a liar.

Hope you and Mrs Graham have a very good weekend!

But Valerie didn't recognise him! Original descriptions hardly compare favourably with a second face-to-face encounter with the actual man who raped you after shooting dead your boyfriend.

If Alphon was guilty he didn't tell the whole truth or he would surely have incriminated himself. But I doubt he was unbalanced enough to really want to spend the rest of his life in prison, or it would have happened. If he wasn't there, nobody could prove he was, so he would have felt safe with his fantasies.

Love,

Caz
X

[Limehouse]

But Valerie didn't recognise him! Original descriptions hardly compare favourably with a second face-to-face encounter with the actual man who raped you after shooting dead your boyfriend.

If Alphon was guilty he didn't tell the whole truth or he would surely have incriminated himself. But I doubt he was unbalanced enough to really want to spend the rest of his life in prison, or it would have happened. If he wasn't there, nobody could prove he was, so he would have felt safe with his fantasies.

Love,

Caz
X

Yes, but my post was in response to Graham's sequence of events regarding the apprehension of Alphon as a suspect. he must have been seriously considered as a suspect because he fitted the original description and he was therefore placed in a line up.

Concerning your second point, Valerie, by her own admission, did not have a 'face to face' encounter with the suspect during her ordeal and this might surely account for the conflicting descriptions. She took 20 minutes to select Hanratty and did so after asking him to speak.

[Natalie Severn]

Yes, but my post was in response to Graham's sequence of events regarding the apprehension of Alphon as a suspect. he must have been seriously considered as a suspect because he fitted the original description and he was therefore placed in a line up.

You are not joking! -----lets not beat about the bush....

-Peter Alphon was the subject of a nationwide murder hunt in which
Peter Alphon -and nobody else---- was named publicly by the police---which was unheard of!
The police began to lose interest in him when Valerie picked out another ,totally innocent man ,Michael Clark as the A6 killer and her rapist from the line up on 24th September.
Peter Alphon was kept in Brixton prison nevertheless until 29th September

[louisa]

My qualification is common sense, Louisa. Think about what I said about the guilty party being obliged to lie by definition if they put in a plea of 'not guilty'. A guilty Hanratty would have been obliged to lie too, but not an innocent one.

Get it now?

Love,

Caz
X

"My qualification is common sense".

I'm glad to see you've got a sense of humour. Whilst we're talking about common sense I would say it makes sense to see that Hanratty was most probably innocent and was fitted up.

I have already stated that both Hanratty and Alphon lied, but luckily for Alphon (through a sheer fluke of misidentification) he was never put on trial.

I am not saying either of these two men committed the crimes, It could have been somebody else entirely. I just don't think it was Hanratty.

You've got the meaning of 'by definition' wrong by the way.

Love,

Louisa
X

[Limehouse]

You are not joking! -----lets not beat about the bush....

-Peter Alphon was the subject of a nationwide murder hunt in which
Peter Alphon -and nobody else---- was named publicly by the police---which was unheard of!
The police began to lose interest in him when Valerie picked out another ,totally innocent man ,Michael Clark as the A6 killer and her rapist from the line up on 24th September.
Peter Alphon was kept in Brixton prison nevertheless until 29th September

Yes Norma, it's true that the police took Alphon's staus as a suspect very seriously indeed and it is astonishing to me that when Mrs Dhal identified him as the man who had attacked her, the alibi provided by the men he regularly purchased almanacs from was accepted with very little further investigation.

As I've said before, A6 killer or not, he should have been named Peter Louis Teflon.

[Natalie Severn]

Yes Norma, it's true that the police took Alphon's staus as a suspect very seriously indeed and it is astonishing to me that when Mrs Dhal identified him as the man who had attacked her, the alibi provided by the men he regularly purchased almanacs from was accepted with very little further investigation.

As I've said before, A6 killer or not, he should have been named Peter Louis Teflon.

-not only that Julie but both Acott and Oxford actually took the almanac sellers to Brixton prison to identify Alphon who had been placed on remand and wasn't released until 29th September which was all very unusual.Mind with Alphon originally pretending to be Durrant and being identified by Mrs Dhal as her attacker I suppose they needed to be suire Alphon was Alphon!!!

[caz]

It was only when Valerie Storie mistakenly picked out Michael Clark as her rapist and not Alphon---later admitting to Michael Sherrard in court that she thought at the time that Clark had 'looked like Alphon'-----that the police began to lose interest in Peter Alphon,

Lets get the sequence right and the seriousness of the police hunt for Alphon in the third week of September.
Newspaper clippings are available and have been collected by JS Marilyn on the huge nationwide hunt the police put out for Alphon between 19th and 24th September 1961 as well as their naming of Peter Alphon in the press and on other media as their prime A6 murder suspect.I can obtain them via him if need be.

Hi Nats,

I've only just realised that the above makes no logical sense. You rely on Valerie for Clark looking like Alphon (while you also want her to be an unreliable eye witness when it came to recognising Hanratty). But if Clark really did resemble Alphon to a significant degree, the police would have been well aware of the fact, so why on earth would they have begun to 'lose interest' in him, simply because Valerie - understandably - mistook one for the other? Firstly, they'd have been mad to pick anyone for the line-up who was too like their prime suspect; secondly, if they were that mad, they'd have realised their mistake as soon as Valerie made hers, and would have raised their game to keep Alphon in the frame, rather than meekly dropping him in favour of someone who looked nothing like him or Clark, and keeping their fingers crossed that Valerie would pick this one out!

It's all too absurd.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

You've got the meaning of 'by definition' wrong by the way.

Love,

Louisa
X

No - it's a 'lie' by definition whenever the guilty party pleads 'not guilty'.

Love,

Caz
X

[louisa]

When a suspect is placed in a line-up and is not picked out by the main witness, then he goes free and cannot be tried for that crime. Hence the police were forced to accept that Alphon was now free as a bird and they had to cast their net elsewhere.

Now for my opinion - The public were still clamouring for a culprit to be apprehended and tried for these heinous crimes and the police were forced to find somebody else to pin the crimes on.


Limehouse: 'Teflon Pete' would have been a good nickname for Alphon.


Caz: I'm curious. Have you read the books by Paul Foot and Bob Woffindon?

And Caz, here's a lesson in grammar for you. An example:

If I say "An English person comes from England, by definition" it means that an English person has to come from England. That is the meaning of English. It is the definition of the word 'English'.

No charge for that.