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  • Originally posted by OneRound View Post
    Louisa - in fundamental terms and most circumstances, for ar an alibi to be effective it has to be demonstrated that the defendant was somewhere else when the offence concerned was committed.

    In other words, it has to be time bound and related. Caz has explained this well and probably much better in the past.

    This is why Hanratty's assertions about ''the green bath'' are meaningless in isolation. Hanratty might well have slept in the room with the green bath. He could even have bathed in it. However, that doesn't help Hanratty one bit if the time that Hanratty stayed in that room cannot be shown. Hanratty can say he saw the green bath but the green bath cannot say it saw Hanratty, let alone when which is of such crucial importance.

    Natalie fights your corner and Hanratty's case regarding the sweetshop strongly above. However, the principal witness Mrs Dinwoodie, whom the defence would have expected to back up Hanratty, gave a sworn statement that the event was on a different day. This doesn't disprove Hanratty's claim but it certainly introduces doubt and makes the situation anything but clear and unequivocal. That has to be to the detriment of Hanratty and his supporters.

    I don't have my file papers with me at the moment but if you then add the comments of the lorry driver in the sweetshop into the mix, things become more unclear and unhelpful for Hanratty.

    You cannot pick and choose only the bits you want from your witnesses. Before you and Natalie point it out, I know it seems the police did at times but that is for another chapter.

    Best regards,

    OneRound
    With respect OneRound, this argument could equally apply to the witness evidence provided by Valerie. First it was reported the man had 'deep set brown eyes' based, we must assume, on her description. She picked out a completely innocent man in the first line-up. The description changes to become 'blue eyes' and she takes twenty minutes to select Hanratty, but only after she has heard him speak. The jusry must have beeb doubtful about her testimony too - and particularly as Norma points out that they asked the judge for guidance regarding 'beyond reasonable doubt'.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Limehouse View Post
      With respect OneRound, this argument could equally apply to the witness evidence provided by Valerie. First it was reported the man had 'deep set brown eyes' based, we must assume, on her description. She picked out a completely innocent man in the first line-up. The description changes to become 'blue eyes' and she takes twenty minutes to select Hanratty, but only after she has heard him speak. The jusry must have beeb doubtful about her testimony too - and particularly as Norma points out that they asked the judge for guidance regarding 'beyond reasonable doubt'.
      Hi Julie - I did try and anticipate that comment although, admittedly, I expected it from Natalie or Louisa. Please look again at the final short para of my last post to Louisa.

      Louisa had asked me to explain why for me the sweetshop alibi did not provide conclusive proof of Hanratty's innocence. I was therefore giving a personal view that it cannot fully work for me whilst it is far from being clear and unequivocal. Unintentionally, I'm sure, Natalie actually supports my thinking when she uses the words ''more likely'' in referring to the time of the lorry driver being in the sweetshop. Nothing is certain about the matter.

      Other aspects subsequently raised by you and Natalie are certainly valid to the whole Hanratty case but they do not relate to the narrow question I was specifically asked and trying to answer.

      Best regards,

      OneRound

      Comment


      • OneRound - "You cannot pick and choose only the bits you want from your witnesses"

        Actually yes, I can pick and choose the parts that I think are relevant.

        I'm leaving aside the Rhyl alibi (which is important in itself) and concentrating on the Liverpool sweetshop because I believe it's the one irrefutable fact of Hanratty's alibi.

        Whether the forgetful Mrs. Dinwoodie did or didn't remember which of the two days she saw Hanratty is immaterial because we all know that she could only have seen him on the 22nd. He was in London on the 21st - all day and all night. Fact.

        I really don't understand why Michael Sherrard didn't stress this extremely relevant point to the jury. It should have been hammered into their minds.
        This is simply my opinion

        Comment


        • Originally posted by louisa View Post
          OneRound - "You cannot pick and choose only the bits you want from your witnesses"

          Actually yes, I can pick and choose the parts that I think are relevant.

          I'm leaving aside the Rhyl alibi (which is important in itself) and concentrating on the Liverpool sweetshop because I believe it's the one irrefutable fact of Hanratty's alibi.

          Whether the forgetful Mrs. Dinwoodie did or didn't remember which of the two days she saw Hanratty is immaterial because we all know that she could only have seen him on the 22nd. He was in London on the 21st - all day and all night. Fact.

          I really don't understand why Michael Sherrard didn't stress this extremely relevant point to the jury. It should have been hammered into their minds.
          Louisa - you are of course perfectly entitled to pick and choose whatever you wish from a ''forgetful'' principal witness and others.

          However, it does seem a bit unreasonable if you are automatically assuming that everyone else including the trial jury (however much Sherrard emphasised the 'positives') and Court of Appeal should have done the same.

          To be clear, the sweetshop incident helps the case for Hanratty. However, for me, it does not prove his innocence as the whole circumstances are far from clear and unequivocal. Unlike your good self, I feel unable to pick and choose here.

          You asked for the reasoning of my assessment of this incident (ie the lack of proof of innocence). I believe my reasoning has been provided.

          Best regards,

          OneRound

          Comment


          • As Judge Gorman took pains to point out,finding the cartridge cases in room 24 at the Vienna nearly three weeks after the crime had been committed in no way provided proof that Hanratty had had anything whatever to do with their placement there-certainly his fingerprints were not on them. Florence Snell insisted she had moved the chair to make the bed ---insisted that you could only make the bed if you did move the chair with the bullet cases on it.Yet the moment Crocker and Galves moved the chair one of them immediately fell off!
            Judge Gorman also took pains to point out the room was accessible from a public park at the bottom of the garden and that both windows and doors were often left unlocked as well as numbers of people having stayed in the hotel since Hanratty had left.

            Then there is the very bizarre business of Hanratty's hanky being found to cover 60 cases of ammu nition and a gun on 24th August on a 36A bus -yes- the same August 24th 1961 at 8.45pm as JH was sending a telegram from Liverpool -apart from this--- there is nothing to link Hanratty to the crime.

            Who gave the information to the police about Hanratty using the back seat of an upstairs bus to hide things? Charles France.
            The same Charles France whose wife washed Hanratty's handkerchiefs and who himself committed suicide just days before Hanratty was executed.

            The same Charles France who went down the road to William Ewer's shop in Swiss Cottage
            to apologise for the death of Michael Gregsten--not soon after he had been murdered but a full six months later---apologised to a man Ewer claimed he didnt know ....Why?
            Ewer claimed a lot of things. One thing we now know for certain and that he kept rather quiet about is that not long after the trial ended he left his wife and went to live with Michael Gregsten's widow, Janet.
            Last edited by Natalie Severn; 01-08-2012, 07:15 PM.

            Comment


            • "You asked for the reasoning of my assessment of this incident (ie the lack of proof of innocence). I believe my reasoning has been provided"

              What I actually asked was why you were disputing the fact that Hanratty was definitely in the sweetshop on the 22nd. See my post #1074 and yours #1075.


              Natalie - I suspect that Alphon dropped those cartridge cases when he moved rooms. He was originally booked into the basement room and he left his case there - collecting it when he returned - very late - and going to his newly allocated room. What do you think?

              Unfortunately in this murder case there were too many witnesses who were unreliable - thieves, jailbirds, ex-cons and other crooks, none of whom seemed capable of telling the truth. The trial was a fairly long one (by 1961 standards) but it still wasn't long enough to unravel all the discrepancies and really explore the new Rhyl evidence. We have the benefit of hindsight and a better insight into the details, thanks to the books written after the case. People who have studied this case probably know a lot more than the jury knew at the time.
              Last edited by louisa; 01-08-2012, 08:42 PM.
              This is simply my opinion

              Comment


              • Originally posted by louisa View Post
                "You asked for the reasoning of my assessment of this incident (ie the lack of proof of innocence). I believe my reasoning has been provided"

                What I actually asked was why you were disputing the fact that Hanratty was definitely in the sweetshop on the 22nd. See my post #1074 and yours #1075.
                Louisa - however the question is asked, I cannot support Hanratty ''definitely'' being in the sweetshop when for me the whole circumstances are far from clear and unequivocal. I have already explained why I have that view of those circumstances.

                I have given a personal answer which is what you requested. I do not expect us to be of the same mind here but I am disappointed you appear to be so ungracious when I have given you an answer which is as honest, clear and prompt as I can. If you are upset by such an answer, perhaps you shouldn't have asked the question.

                OneRound

                Comment


                • Originally posted by louisa View Post


                  Natalie - I suspect that Alphon dropped those cartridge cases when he moved rooms. He was originally booked into the basement room and he left his case there - collecting it when he returned - very late - and going to his newly allocated room. What do you think?
                  I do think this is a possibility.There was a very strange blackout of police news after the police descended in large numbers on the Alexandra Ct Hotel on 18th September and took statements from the manager , staff and guests.This was the second time the police had been there in connection with Alphon, the first time being 27th August.
                  Nudds who had given a statement on 15th September exonerating Alphon and implicating Hanratty by referring to him asking about the 36A bus was hauled into Scotland Yard and interviewed for 7 hours.His second statement of 21st September told a totally different story-Alphon had initially been put in room 24 etc etc.
                  At no time between 11th September and 24th September did the police look for Hanratty.Following Nudds's 2nd statement a nationwide murder hunt began for Alphon---despite the altered description of the gunman from having dark eyes-deep set/not very deep set and the fact that Alphon had hazel eyes......
                  It was only after Valerie Storie failed to identify Alphon on 24th and they therefore had to drop him that Nudds was again hauled in for further lengthy questioning on 25th September. The police then sealed airports and flew off to Ireland on a wild goose chase looking for Hanratty and things changed course.Meanwhile Hanratty was very much present in London , busying himself putting the deposit on a car and dating Mary Meaden-taking her to the London Palladium and the pictures -and managing to squeeze in some new Stanmore burglaries on the 30th.
                  But on 5th October Acott and Oxford flew back from Ireland and started off the hunt for Hanratty big time.
                  So yes---I have strong suspicions that something was found between 11th September and 24th [or 18th and 24th ]that linked Alphon strongly to the crime in the eyes of the police.What it was we may never know but it was strong enough to launch a nationwide hunt for him and to extraordinarily name him publicly as their suspect.
                  Last edited by Natalie Severn; 01-08-2012, 10:25 PM.

                  Comment


                  • A couple of comments regarding JH's Liverpool Alibi:

                    1] He said he, for whatever reason, wrongly went to Paddington station instead of Euston yet by his own admission had travelled by train from London to Liverpool a number of times previously. Is it just coincidence that Paddington is the station which connects London with places like Maidenhead and Slough?

                    2] JH said he caught either the 10.55 or 11.55 train. No trains left Euston for Liverpool at those times. There was a train leaving at 10.35am arriving Liverpool at 3.25pm. But JH said he arrived at Liverpool between 4.00 and 5.00 pm. Mrs Dinwoodie said the man who asked for directions came into her shop at about 4.00pm but on the Monday.

                    3] JH said there was a 'clerky gent' on the train to Liverpool, wearing gold cufflinks initialled with the letter 'E'. Is it (again) a coincidence that he burgled a house in Harrow on 12 August and nicked six sets of gold cufflinks initialled with the letter 'E'?

                    4] Peter Usher, one of the men on duty at Lime Street Station left-luggage, was doing the 6.00am to 2.00pm shift on the day JH claimed he was there - see above the times he gave for his arrival at Lime Street. Usher claimed to remember a man whose name he thought was 'Ratty', but JH himself said he used a false name. Sherrard did not call Usher as a witness because his evidence would not 'fit' JH's claimed arrival time, and also because Sherrard thought that Usher was showing an unhealthy need to "get in on the act".

                    5] Re: the sweetshop. There were 29 sweetshops in Scotland Road. JH claimed the one he went into was opposite a cinema. Years ago on this thread a poster (Steve) took some photos of the site upon which Mrs Dinwoodie's shop, now demolished, had stood. This was 408 Scotland Road, a much altered thoroughfare since 1961. However, Steve suggested (if my memory is reliable) there was no sign that this shop stood opposite a cinema.

                    6] Mrs Dinwoodie was shown only one photo, that of JH, by DC Pugh who interviewed her, against all acceptable police procedure.

                    7] Mrs Dinwoodie said that she thought the man who asked about 'Tarleton Avenue' had a Scots or Welsh accent - JH spoke with a cockney accent. (OK, I concede that Mrs D may not have met too many cockneys in Liverpool, but she almost certainly had spoken to Scots and Welsh people).

                    8] Mrs Dinwoodie's grand-daughter helped out in the shop at times. JH said that a 'little girl' was in the shop when he called in. Mrs D said it was 'definitely the Monday, because I was alone on the Tuesday, and my grand-daughter was with me only on the Monday'.

                    9] Mrs Dinwoodie said the man called in her shop at about 4.00pm. Getting back to timing, if JH had caught the 10.35 train from Euston which arrived Liverpool at 3.25pm, he could not have been in Mrs D's shop at 4.00pm as according to his own statement he had a wash and a cup of tea at Lime Street Station before catching a bus to Scotland Road.

                    10] Mrs Dinwoodie said she was unwell on the day the man asking for Tarleton Road came into the shop; the next day she was very ill.

                    11] Finally, Mrs D's statement that the man was asking for 'Tarleton Road or Avenue' was actually derived from second-hand evidence. The shop's owner, Mrs Cowley, was interviewed by DC Pugh who told her that the police were 'looking for a man who came into a sweetshop on Scotland Road asking for directions to Tarleton Road or Avenue. Mrs Cowley passed on this information to Mrs D before she, Mrs D, was interviewed by DC Pugh on his return to the shop. That was the occasion when he showed her just the one photo, that of James Hanratty. In other words, Mrs D's recollection that 'the man' was asking for Tarleton Road or Avenue came indirectly, via the police, from JH himself. I wonder if DC Pugh got the bollocking he deserved?

                    I simply cannot accept that James Hanratty was in a Liverpool sweetshop on the afternoon of 22 August 1961 as he claimed.

                    Sorry for the length of this post.

                    Graham
                    Last edited by Graham; 01-09-2012, 02:20 AM.
                    We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                    Comment


                    • OneRound - You told me that I must be joking, and I asked why. Simply that. I am certainly not in the slightest bit upset by somebody who disagrees with my logic, it happens all the time(!) and I am sorry you think me 'ungracious' (but why you would think that, I really don't know).

                      We have different viewpoints and that is fine by me as it is what is to be expected on a thread about such a controversial subject.



                      Natalie - Yes Acott must have been 99% certain that Alphon was his man to have gone so public with his description. Alphon was very very lucky that Valerie Storie didn't pick him out in the line-up. He was also lucky that they were not asked to speak, as they had been in Hanratty's line-up, because Alphon had a London accent and sometimes pronounced 'th' as 'f'.
                      This is simply my opinion

                      Comment


                      • Alphon was very very lucky that Valerie Storie didn't pick him out in the line-up. He was also lucky that they were not asked to speak, as they had been in Hanratty's line-up, because Alphon had a London accent and sometimes pronounced 'th' as 'f'.
                        Yet according to Jean Justice, Alphon was an excellent mimic when he wanted to be, and actually taped him speaking with the accent of an 'uneducated person'.

                        Graham
                        We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Graham View Post
                          A couple of comments regarding JH's Liverpool Alibi:

                          1] He said he, for whatever reason, wrongly went to Paddington station instead of Euston yet by his own admission had travelled by train from London to Liverpool a number of times previously. Is it just coincidence that Paddington is the station which connects London with places like Maidenhead and Slough?


                          2] JH said he caught either the 10.55 or 11.55 train. No trains left Euston for Liverpool at those times. There was a train leaving at 10.35am arriving Liverpool at 3.25pm. But JH said he arrived at Liverpool between 4.00 and 5.00 pm. Mrs Dinwoodie said the man who asked for directions came into her shop at about 4.00pm but on the Monday.

                          3] JH said there was a 'clerky gent' on the train to Liverpool, wearing gold cufflinks initialled with the letter 'E'. Is it (again) a coincidence that he burgled a house in Harrow on 12 August and nicked six sets of gold cufflinks initialled with the letter 'E'?

                          4] Peter Usher, one of the men on duty at Lime Street Station left-luggage, was doing the 6.00am to 2.00pm shift on the day JH claimed he was there - see above the times he gave for his arrival at Lime Street. Usher claimed to remember a man whose name he thought was 'Ratty', but JH himself said he used a false name. Sherrard did not call Usher as a witness because his evidence would not 'fit' JH's claimed arrival time, and also because Sherrard thought that Usher was showing an unhealthy need to "get in on the act".

                          5] Re: the sweetshop. There were 29 sweetshops in Scotland Road. JH claimed the one he went into was opposite a cinema. Years ago on this thread a poster (Steve) took some photos of the site upon which Mrs Dinwoodie's shop, now demolished, had stood. This was 408 Scotland Road, a much altered thoroughfare since 1961. However, Steve suggested (if my memory is reliable) there was no sign that this shop stood opposite a cinema.

                          6] Mrs Dinwoodie was shown only one photo, that of JH, by DC Pugh who interviewed her, against all acceptable police procedure.

                          7] Mrs Dinwoodie said that she thought the man who asked about 'Tarleton Avenue' had a Scots or Welsh accent - JH spoke with a cockney accent. (OK, I concede that Mrs D may not have met too many cockneys in Liverpool, but she almost certainly had spoken to Scots and Welsh people).

                          8] Mrs Dinwoodie's grand-daughter helped out in the shop at times. JH said that a 'little girl' was in the shop when he called in. Mrs D said it was 'definitely the Monday, because I was alone on the Tuesday, and my grand-daughter was with me only on the Monday'.

                          9] Mrs Dinwoodie said the man called in her shop at about 4.00pm. Getting back to timing, if JH had caught the 10.35 train from Euston which arrived Liverpool at 3.25pm, he could not have been in Mrs D's shop at 4.00pm as according to his own statement he had a wash and a cup of tea at Lime Street Station before catching a bus to Scotland Road.

                          10] Mrs Dinwoodie said she was unwell on the day the man asking for Tarleton Road came into the shop; the next day she was very ill.

                          11] Finally, Mrs D's statement that the man was asking for 'Tarleton Road or Avenue' was actually derived from second-hand evidence. The shop's owner, Mrs Cowley, was interviewed by DC Pugh who told her that the police were 'looking for a man who came into a sweetshop on Scotland Road asking for directions to Tarleton Road or Avenue. Mrs Cowley passed on this information to Mrs D before she, Mrs D, was interviewed by DC Pugh on his return to the shop. That was the occasion when he showed her just the one photo, that of James Hanratty. In other words, Mrs D's recollection that 'the man' was asking for Tarleton Road or Avenue came indirectly, via the police, from JH himself. I wonder if DC Pugh got the bollocking he deserved?

                          I simply cannot accept that James Hanratty was in a Liverpool sweetshop on the afternoon of 22 August 1961 as he claimed.

                          Sorry for the length of this post.

                          Graham
                          Hi Graham,

                          No 1]
                          Paddington is very close to Maida Vale---he could easily have been thinking he might try Louise Anderson again see if she could buy some of his stuff-she lived just a stone's throw from Paddington Station in Sussex Gdns,Paddington.

                          No 2]
                          Hanratty was ducking and diving.He was desperate to sell his bits and pieces of valuable jewelery and buy a car with the 350 the diamond ring was worth[or thought to be worth]---that was what he was about and what was burning a hole in his pocket----he wasnt a 'clock watcher' as he emphasised himself to Swanwick in his court dialogue/cross questioning.His 'work' didn't demand it!
                          He wasn't a man with a 9-5 job either -why should he remember exactly what time he took a train from 6 weeks before?
                          There was a fast train left Euston at 10.20 and arrived at 2.17 that day and a slower one that left at 10.25. The next was at 12.15
                          Much research was carried out by Paul Foot on what Mrs Dinwoodie said and her first statements said 'it was either Monday or Tuesday.She qualified it later by placing the date when her granddaughter was with her as Hanratty had said there was a girl there.But we now know from Barbara Ford and her friend Linda Walton that Barbara was there between 4 and 5 on Tuesday too.She too made statements to the police and so did LInda Walton.

                          Hanratty gave the name Ryan to Usher---a name that began with an R.


                          As for Mrs Dinwoodie she was a religious woman of very sound character.Yes she was shown a picture but later the proper procedure was followed and she still identified Hanratty.

                          Your stand here is in stark contrast to Mr Swanwick's btw and Acott -which is fine GRaham but it differs quite a lot from their thinking. They certainly believed Mrs Dinwoodie well enough---they simply thought he must have used a plane to get down South and carry out his "unpremeditated lust murder![either that or he had paid a lookalike to impersonate him ].The judge put paid to that idea which was ridiculous .

                          What about Robert Kempt ? What about Linda Walton's and Barbara Ford's police statements?

                          I can't understand how people don't see the difference between an unemployed man's thinking and timekeeping and that of someone who had a regular job.
                          Last edited by Natalie Severn; 01-09-2012, 03:17 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Graham - I can't really decide whether Alphon was very stupid or very clever. He was certainly well educated. He lived in Streatham (where I used to live). I know Gleneagles Road very well. We've all heard Peter Alphon speaking - when he was interviewed in his Paris hotel room for his 'confession'. He had a typical London accent, not a particularly refined one although I'm sure he could put one on when he chose to.

                            Natalie - I thought I'd read (in either the Paul Foot book or the Bob Woffindon one) that Louise Anderson said that she'd seen Hanratty on the morning of the 22nd.
                            Last edited by louisa; 01-09-2012, 03:17 AM.
                            This is simply my opinion

                            Comment


                            • Quite right LOuisa about Alphon"s accent being very distinctly London.He was very bright but into very weird stuff.He had also been brought up during the war very close to Slough and the fields around Dorney Reach.

                              Comment


                              • Norma,

                                sorry, but you haven't really addressed any of the points I raised in my post No 1089.

                                Alphon was born in Croydon, Surrey, in 1930. He had been evacuated to Horsham during WW2. It seems that after the war his parents moved around quite a lot, but where, please, is the evidence that he knew the area around Dorney Reach? And even if he did - so what?

                                Louisa,

                                the filmed interview that Alphon gave shows that he did indeed have a London accent, but not a cockney accent. From what I've read over the past 20+ years, it appears that Hanratty had a very typical "cor-blimey" cockney accent. Alphon, per this TV interview, also spoke fluently and easily, without much hesitation, whereas I understand that Hanratty had a real difficulty in speaking coherently.

                                I personally believe that Alphon's presence in the A6 Case was purely circumstantial and coincidental, but once he was 'in', so to speak, he milked it to the hilt. He most certainly was not a stupid man, not by any stretch of the imagination. His relationship with Jean Justice demonstrates, to me at least, that he was incredibly manipulative.

                                Graham

                                Graham
                                We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                                Comment

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