A6 Rebooted

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes it does. However this was fully disclosed at the trial and therefore would have been part of the jury's deliberations.

But this is where Stickler skims over what I was referring to above as questionable police behaviour. One of the grounds of appeal in 2002 was that the police tried to frame Alphon, and it is difficult to argue with that description. I believe there was pressure on Nudds to produce his second statement, which led to Alphon being sought. Acott then made a presumed 'We got him' visit to Valerie inferring that the murderer was definitely on the line-up. This doesn't excuse Valerie, but gives some context.

I was wondering about Nudds yesterday Nick after I’d read the section of the book dealing with events at The Vienna. I wasn’t really convinced about a motive for him to have wanted to give the police Alphon on a plate via his second statement. The suggestion appears to be (at least from Stickler) that Nudds would somehow be getting into their ‘good books’ which might help him in some way as he was unpopular amongst the criminal fraternity for grassing someone up while he was in prison. But if the police asked or pressured him into it?

It hasn’t been mentioned in the book yet but, from my fallible memory, didn’t Nudds change his story again and didn’t the third version exonerate Alphon. If I’m misremembering ignore the point Nick. But if the 3rd version did exonerate Alphon wouldn’t that pretty much disprove ‘pressure from the police’ suggestion?

[cobalt]

As an inveterate liar, police informer, thief and prison grass nothing said by Nudds (or his partner) is helpful in understanding the events at the Vienna Hotel. He was clearly a slippery customer who ingratiated himself with the powers that be, whether they were criminal (which might explain his first statement) or legal (his contradictory second and third statements.)

[NickB]

After Nudds second statement he was allowed to go home and tell his partner Snell what to say in her interview. That is not normal police practice! After she backed up his story the police then re-interviewed Galves, but she did not change her account which conflicted with theirs. So if Nudds and Snell has not made third statements revoking the second there would still have been Galves dissenting statement. Nudds and Snell were interviewed separately when they revoked the second statement.

The police also suppressed statements by the owner and manager of the Broadway House Hotel who gave Alphon an alibi.

In the 2002 Appeal both sides agreed that the DNA evidence exonerated Alphon.

[Sherlock Houses]

As an inveterate liar, police informer, thief and prison grass nothing said by Nudds (or his partner) is helpful in understanding the events at the Vienna Hotel. He was clearly a slippery customer who ingratiated himself with the powers that be, whether they were criminal (which might explain his first statement) or legal (his contradictory second and third statements.)

It's interesting to note, Cobalt, that the judge, William Gorman, in his summing up said something to the effect that Nudds was not incapable of telling the truth, despite the contradictions in his police statements. It is indeed difficult to distinguish truth from fiction when dealing with Nudds. At the end of his second statement he does very accurately describe Ryan [Hanratty] and Durrant [Alphon] as shown on page 68 of Paul Foot's book below.......

[Sherlock Houses]

What I find very interesting is Nudds's description of Hanratty's voice as sounding 'possibly Irish'.
Trevor Dutton, in his impressive statement to Abergele police on February 9th 1962, describes the voice of the young man
who tried to sell him a gold watch on Rhyl High Street on August 23rd 1961 as sounding 'possibly Irish or cockney or a mixture of the two'.

i wonder how many young men with Irish/Cockney accents would have been trying to sell a gold watch in Rhyl's High Street on August 23rd 1961 ???

Here is Mr Dutton's statement [copied from Bob Woffinden's book]

[cobalt]

To be fair to Nudds, his physical description of Hanratty seems pretty much on the mark. I assume this description could not have been coached since at that time Hanratty was not on the police radar. The portable radio is an interesting detail, if true. Why would Hanratty be lugging that around if he was setting out to do a spot of burglary, far less a hold up? For background music to set the scene? Valerie Storie did not mention it so what happened to the radio?

[Herlock Sholmes]

What I find very interesting is Nudds's description of Hanratty's voice as sounding 'possibly Irish'.
Trevor Dutton, in his impressive statement to Abergele police on February 9th 1962, describes the voice of the young man
who tried to sell him a gold watch on Rhyl High Street on August 23rd 1961 as sounding 'possibly Irish or cockney or a mixture of the two'.

i wonder how many young men with Irish/Cockney accents would have been trying to sell a gold watch in Rhyl's High Street on August 23rd 1961 ???

Here is Mr Dutton's statement [copied from Bob Woffinden's book]

Did Hanratty have any trace of Irish in his accent Sherlock?

[Sherlock Houses]

To be fair to Nudds, his physical description of Hanratty seems pretty much on the mark. I assume this description could not have been coached since at that time Hanratty was not on the police radar. The portable radio is an interesting detail, if true. Why would Hanratty be lugging that around if he was setting out to do a spot of burglary, far less a hold up? For background music to set the scene? Valerie Storie did not mention it so what happened to the radio?

Hanratty's portable radio is mentioned by him in a letter addressed to his mother on March 22nd 1962. In this letter he wrote...."Last night I had a very nice half hour listening to the football match between Spurs and Benfica. I don't know what I would do without my little wireless as it helps to pass away days, as you know I don't care much for reading." [Paul Foot book page 289]

PS. Just as a matter of possible interest to some, highlights of this match [European Cup Semi-Final 1st leg] were broadcast on the evening of March 21st on the Light programme. Benfica, the eventual winners of the Cup that year, won this 1st leg, [a home leg] 3-1 with Spurs winning the 2nd leg 2-1, the day after Hanratty was hanged.

[Sherlock Houses]

Did Hanratty have any trace of Irish in his accent Sherlock?

Very possibly so HS as his father, James sr, was born in Drogheda, Ireland.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Very possibly so HS as his father, James sr, was born in Drogheda, Ireland.

[moste]

There is enough information on these last few post s. Surely to conclude’ Reasonable Doubt.
What were the jury discussing all those long hours, apart from ‘I wonder what reasonable doubt means? We’d best go ask the judge, what a farce!

[ansonman]

What did for Hanratty was Stories utter and unwavering conviction that he was the man who committed the crimes. Without that, they wouldn't have found him guilty.

[NickB]

The cartridge cases,.the gun, saying he was Jim, identification by Skillett and Blackhall, lying about his alibi ...

You can disagree with the other things, but they did exist.

As for the unreliability of Nudds ...

In this trial he was only a peripheral witness, but if Alphon has been put on trial he would have been front and centre.

[Sherlock Houses]

What did for Hanratty was Stories utter and unwavering conviction that he was the man who committed the crimes. Without that, they wouldn't have found him guilty.

The unnamed female rape victim in the Andrew Malkinson case you drew attention to recently Ansonman, was 100% certain that the perpetrator was the completely innocent Andrew, which led him to being wrongfully imprisoned for 17 long and stressful years. Such, alas, is the fallibility of eyewitness memory and identification [together with police misbehaviour] which has caused countless numbers of innocent people to be wrongfully convicted.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does anyone find the reason given for Gregsten being shot a little strange? The killer had requested that Gregsten pass him the bag so it wasn’t an unexexpected action yet he said “He frightened me. He moved suddenly. I got scared.” It’s not as if the laundry bag could have been used to subdue the killer and allow Gregsten to take the gun away from him. How could anything Gregsten did have triggered a man sitting safely behind him holding a gun?

There doesn’t appear to have been much time between Gregsten being shot and the killer asking Valerie to kiss him. Might this point to the rape being the intention all along and that the killer was hesitating as to when to make his move? Is that a valid speculation? If it is, and if Hanratty had no previous issues of sexual violence, is this a point against Hanratty’s guilt?