A6 Rebooted

[Graham]

Hi Hatchett,

On the DNA are you trying to say that the Hanratty family never asked or petitioned for DNA evidence to be looked into and considered?

If you are then I suggest that is a little re writing of history.

Of course they petitioned for DNA evidence to be considered, and when it went against them they yelled "Contamination!" very loudly. Re-writing of history is, I grieve to say, rather endemic amongst those who claim that James Hanratty was innocent.

Graham

[Graham]

I think I'll have another go - indeed, why not? - at my two perennial questions to the Hanratty supporters:

1] why did he change his alibi half-way through the trial?

2] why did he ask Acott what 'the size' of the cartridge cases was?

Graham

[Limehouse]

Other than that he was known to have been the last occupant of that very room do you mean, apart from another gentleman who did not fit the description of the A6 murderer...and of course the fact that his hankerchief was wrapped around the gun which matched them, and these items were hidden in his chosen hiding place.

All pure co-incidence of course.

By the way, if somebody had access to the weapon/cartridges and wanted to plant them, why plant the actual gun somewhere on a bus, and just some empty cartridge cases in the room? If someone wanted to fit Hanratty up (still no sensible suggestions as to who or why that i have seen on this point either) why not plant the gun, hankie AND the cartridges all in the same place? Why put anything on a bus that might not even have been discovered?

Cartridges found in a room he occupied three weeks earlier?

A gun wrapped in his hanky does not prove he wrapped the gun in his hanky and placed it on the bus.

The cartridge cases were found to have been fired from the murder weapon. Are you suggesting Hanratty was carrying target practice in his room? Don't you think other residents would have heard that? Wouldn't there have been some damage to the room? Or did he bring the cartridge cases back to the room after firing them elsewhere - and then leave them there?

Why were the gun and cartridge cases in different places? Well that's a good point. The gun was obviously dumped soon after the murder. The cartridge cases were probably planted later to connect the room with the gun. There are several explanation for this which have been explored in previous posts.

Many moons ago - Graham or Steve I think it was -pondered on why the gunman didn't just throw the whole lot - gun and six boxes of cartridges
in the Thames. I think that's what Hanratty would have done.

[Natalie Severn]

Other than that he was known to have been the last occupant of that very room do you mean, apart from another gentleman who did not fit the description of the A6 murderer...and of course the fact that his hankerchief was wrapped around the gun which matched them, and these items were hidden in his chosen hiding place.

-----and which description,Jen, - of Valerie's- are you actually referring to? The one given when her memory was freshest,ie the one given to both John Kerr within three hours of the attack and the one only a few hours later,prior to going for surgery,to the police officer [Whiffen]who was allowed by her consultant to take a statement from her [as her consultant at Bedford General Hospital ]and who said she was compus mentis and quite able to do that.
Now this was on the 23rd August 1961 when Valerie remembered him as having deep set brown eyes, brushed back dark hair and an East End accent.This description of course became the man with eyes as big as [blue]saucers on the 31st August when Janet Gregsten had been to see her and had witnessed the man with eyes as big as saucers going into the dry cleaners.
And no it was most definitely not a story invented by journalists.On 16 May 1971 William Ewer wrote in the Sunday Times, and verified the story and said he had seen the man whose eyes were 'like a carbuncle on his face'-in the fal a fel cafe in the Finchley Road .Janet Gregsten had only seen him going into the dry cleaners but Ewer followed him to Caters the flower shop and found out he had paid the florist, Mrs Dorothy Morrell to send flowers to Mrs Hanratty and signed the card J Ryan on 1st September 1961.
So which description are we talking about? Valerie's of 23rd August or Valerie's around the time William Ewer and Janet Gregsten had their Swiss Cottage sighting?

[Graham]

Hi Julie,

regarding the cartridge cases, I think the circumstances do point to the fact that JH did probably indulge in a little target-practise with his new toy somewhere removed from The Vienna, and then re-load it in the privacy and comfort of his room. And accidentally drop two empty cases on the chair while he was so employed. There is absolutely no proof that they were planted.

The gun + ammo on the bus is, however, somewhat less clear cut. JH admitted that he'd told France about the hiding-place under the back-seat of the bus; he did also say that the hankie was his (although how he recognised it as his is not recorded - it is presumed a monogram). One can surmise that France obtained the gun for JH, and after the crime JH insisted that he take it back - or else. So France took it back and planted it on the bus, and invoked JH's claim re: a back-seat hiding-place, which JH never denied. Plus, I don't think anyone ever contested that Charlotte France did JH's laundry for him from time to time, so there is a route towards obtaining the hankie. But I admit that this is just pure speculation.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,

regarding the cartridge cases, I think the circumstances do point to the fact that JH did probably indulge in a little target-practise with his new toy somewhere removed from The Vienna, and then re-load it in the privacy and comfort of his room. And accidentally drop two empty cases on the chair while he was so employed. There is absolutely no proof that they were planted.

Graham

I don't follow the line of your argument.How on earth could there be proof of somebody 'planting them'? They would hardly 'plant' them and then leave a trail to the identity of the planter would they?

All of it is speculation.Thats the problem.As the judge said.

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,

regarding the cartridge cases, I think the circumstances do point to the fact that JH did probably indulge in a little target-practise with his new toy somewhere removed from The Vienna, and then re-load it in the privacy and comfort of his room. And accidentally drop two empty cases on the chair while he was so employed. There is absolutely no proof that they were planted.

The gun + ammo on the bus is, however, somewhat less clear cut. JH admitted that he'd told France about the hiding-place under the back-seat of the bus; he did also say that the hankie was his (although how he recognised it as his is not recorded - it is presumed a monogram). One can surmise that France obtained the gun for JH, and after the crime JH insisted that he take it back - or else. So France took it back and planted it on the bus, and invoked JH's claim re: a back-seat hiding-place, which JH never denied. Plus, I don't think anyone ever contested that Charlotte France did JH's laundry for him from time to time, so there is a route towards obtaining the hankie. But I admit that this is just pure speculation.

Graham

Hi Graham

Perhaps Dixie held back a couple of cartridge cases for insurance? When Hanratty got back from his trip - he showed Dixie the receeipt from the Vienna Hotel.

I don't think I buy the catridge cases being dropped during re-loading because it was stated the cartridges had been fired from the gun.

There certainly isn't any evidence that the cartridges were planted but there is also no evidence that they were left there by Hanratty.

Have a good weekend.

Julie

[Graham]

So you had been saying that the cases were planted in an attempt to incriminate Hanratty.

Now you're saying that there is no proof that they were planted.

So how DID they get there? Did the Martians put them there?

I think I may as well just give up on this one.

Graham

[Limehouse]

So you had been saying that the cases were planted in an attempt to incriminate Hanratty.

Now you're saying that there is no proof that they were planted.

So how DID they get there? Did the Martians put them there?

I think I may as well just give up on this one.

Graham

I am saying I believe the cases were planted but I am agreeing there is no proof.

Incidently - it is equally possible they were planted to incriminate Alphon. After all- as soon as they were found - the police released his name and shortly afterwards put him on an identity parade.

[Graham]

But Alphon never stayed in that room. If the cases were planted to incriminate Alphon, then they should have gone into Number 6, I think it was.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Charles France lived in Boundary Road.The last but one stop for the 36 bus is at the bottom of Boundary Road. A little further back the 36 bus passes Sutherland Road where the Vienna Hotel is[not a hotel now].

William Ewer's Umbrella/Antiques shop in Swiss Cottage arcade was a few hundred yards down from Boundary Road.

Charles France said how sorry he was to William Ewer .This was just after his friend Hanratty had been sentenced to death and just before he himself committed suicide.It would appear Ewer and France knew each ---being in the same line of business with the antiques and all that.

Seems Charles France was not only at the centre of a confluence of sites connected with the A6 case but he may be at the centre of the spider's web.

[Graham]

Hang on, Norma. I do recall you once describing Charles France as a gangster. Now he's an antiques dealer?? France had nothing to do with antiques. He was a general layabout and a card-sharp. He held court in some long-gone London cafe.

However, I wouldn't argue re: France's being at the centre of a web of some sorts, and not on a geographical basis.

Graham

[Limehouse]

Charles France lived in Boundary Road.The last but one stop for the 36 bus is at the bottom of Boundary Road. A little further back the 36 bus passes Sutherland Road where the Vienna Hotel is[not a hotel now].

William Ewer's Umbrella/Antiques shop in Swiss Cottage arcade was a few hundred yards down from Boundary Road.

Charles France said how sorry he was to William Ewer .This was just after his friend Hanratty had been sentenced to death and just before he himself committed suicide.It would appear Ewer and France knew each ---being in the same line of business with the antiques and all that.

Seems Charles France was not only at the centre of a confluence of sites connected with the A6 case but he may be at the centre of the spider's web.

Hi Norma

Yes - I think France was much more involved in all ths than has actually been revealed (perhaps the truth went to the grave with him and no one else knoew his full involvement). As I have said before - Hanratty came out of prison in March 1961 determined not to go back. That summer he became reacquainted with Charles France and was introduced to Louise Anderson. Suddenly he becomes a rapist and murderer. It's all very odd indeed.

[Limehouse]

Hang on, Norma. I do recall you once describing Charles France as a gangster. Now he's an antiques dealer?? France had nothing to do with antiques. He was a general layabout and a card-sharp. He held court in some long-gone London cafe.

However, I wouldn't argue re: France's being at the centre of a web of some sorts, and not on a geographical basis.

Graham

He did however introduce Louise Anderson to Hanratty. She did sell antiques (among other things) so I suppose France and Anderson were useful to each other.

[Graham]

Charles France did not commit suicide because he sympathised with the situation the Hanratty family found themselves in...believe me.

I can't find anything to suggest that France introduced Hanratty to Louise Anderson, although I suppose it's not out of the question given that they were all interested in stolen goods. Incidentally, Woffinden has her at 48 years old, Foot at 58.

Graham