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  • When it comes to tantalizing individuals , mentioned briefly ,almost in passing, and very little of investigational comment . I find the two traffic enumerators a complete puzzle with regards to non-examination of the facts, especially considering Foot and Woffindens involvement.
    I know it’s been talked of on here before, but ‘Black’ (I think it was Michael) , and apparently I believe one Mr.John Smith, had if I recall been reassigned to a location a mile or two south on the A 6. around Silsoe,They were (again from memory) supposed to work the ‘graveyard’ shift at the lay-by RAC Box.10 till 6am, where presumably they would be relieved by John Kerr. Now the first obvious fact that emerges is ,had they worked this shift they would have witnessed a Morris 1000 pulling in ,some time after midnight. If that had been the case, and the occupants of the car had spotted them, obviously they would have moved on . Just as obvious if the traffic counters hadn’t been seen they would have been witness to everything. All this is purely and extremely ,coincidentally, academic since for some reason both traffic research boys(dare we say road research boys?) were reassigned locations. Well it could be said ‘ oh! Just another coincidence ‘ but...’Really, I’m not happy with that synopsis. And some investigative work was left wanting in my opinion.

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    • Hang on a moment, Moste. Have you ever visited the lay-by - or I should say the modern lay-by that came into existence when the road was dualled? I have. It's big - and the distance north to south of the original lay-by were about the same. John Kerr sat at the extreme southern end of the lay-by, and the Morris was driven into it at the northern end - a long way away. It would obviously have to pass John Kerr as it travelled north, and I assume he marked it as part of his traffic-census. I am 99% certain the northernmost entrance to the lay-by was invisible from the southernmost end. If this was so, and I believe it is, Kerr could not have seen the Morris pull into the lay-by. He was only aware of the murder and wounding when an elderly farm-hand walking south on his way to work saw Valerie and Gregsten and reported this to Kerr, who in turn waved down a passing car to summon the police and ambulance. And are you saying that the two traffic-census guys a couple of miles further south, at Silsoe, were 'removed' from their jobs? Your problem seems to be that you see 'conspiracy' in everything connected with this case, when no conspiracy existed - certainly not in the case of the traffic census people, who incidentally would have been employed by the local Council or possibly the AA, not the Road Research Lab.

      Graham
      We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

      Comment


      • That’s an intriguing find, Graham. Assuming the man was in his 60s when he received his lifetime award in 2001 that would put him in the same age range as Valerie Storie. Since he was working in Merseyside at the time of his award all we now have to do is find out if he ever had any connection with Tarleton Avenue!

        What has surprised me over the years is the reluctance of people who knew Michael Gregsten and Valerie Storie to offer their personal experience of being connected to a crime of national significance. I can fully understand that work colleagues and friends from the rally club might think it more respectful to keep their own counsel after the terrible crime inflicted on Valerie Storie and allow her to live her life without intrusion. However many years have passed since then and there must be dozens of people who knew both Valerie Storie and Michael Gregsten, ordinary people who had a shadow cast over their own lives by the A6 Case.

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        • [QUOTE=cobalt;n735463]That’s an intriguing find, Graham. Assuming the man was in his 60s when he received his lifetime award in 2001 that would put him in the same age range as Valerie Storie. Since he was working in Merseyside at the time of his award all we now have to do is find out if he ever had any connection with Tarleton Avenue![QUOTE]

          Yes, but Tarleton Avenue or Tarleton Road didn't and don't exist in Liverpool! Mrs Dinwoodie came up with one or the other of these names when interviewed by the police following her highly-dodgy 'recognition' of Hanratty when a not-too-bright policeman showed her just the one photo. If in fact Hanratty actually was in Liverpool during that week, then chances are the guy he'd have been to see was Terence McNally, whom he knew from prison - but he had a flat in the Bull Ring, not Tarelton Anywhere. And I somehow can't quite connect a chap who was awarded an OBE with the scallywags who resided in that particular area of Liverpool. But you never know.....

          As far as I'm concerned, the introduction by Sherrard of the name Ronnie Lofthouse into his cross-examination of Valerie must remain a mystery. She said she didn't recognise the name and I think we have to accept that. And as far as I'm aware the name was never raised at all, by anyone, after the trial.

          Graham



          We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

          Comment


          • Re: the lay-by. I should have said that the 'original A6' lay-by is now covered by the northbound lane of the dualled A6, which is on a long curve. The 'current' lay-by dates from when the road was dualled. Although I do recall reading somewhere that a part of the modern lay-by was a farm track. It's a stop for lorry-drivers and anyone else who fancies a bacon buttie from the greasy-spoon that was the two times I visited, back in the 1990's. For whatever reason I'd half-expected there to be some kind of memorial to what happened there in 1961, even withered flowers, but there was nothing. Not that it matters.

            Graham
            We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Graham View Post
              Re: the lay-by. I should have said that the 'original A6' lay-by is now covered by the northbound lane of the dualled A6, which is on a long curve. The 'current' lay-by dates from when the road was dualled. Although I do recall reading somewhere that a part of the modern lay-by was a farm track. It's a stop for lorry-drivers and anyone else who fancies a bacon buttie from the greasy-spoon that was the two times I visited, back in the 1990's. For whatever reason I'd half-expected there to be some kind of memorial to what happened there in 1961, even withered flowers, but there was nothing. Not that it matters.

              Graham
              K
              Quite right Graham. You do realize though that the old lay- by was a dead end . So you couldn’t drive into it at the north end. The only way in was past the RAC box at the south end, and that would be the reason a 3 point turn was negotiated in readiness for leaving .
              I have called by that spot for a lunch break on two occasions back in the day . I lived in Houghton Regis near Dunstable between ‘87 and ‘93, before heading back to Beautiful British Columbia ,after mum died. I know what you mean about Gregstens death location I almost expected to find a marker myself, silly really .
              I'm saying that Black and Smith were indeed very oddly reassigned a new location to the Silsoe area. And now your going to have me search out Where that was written I guess.Unless someone steps up to the mark and Bares me out.
              Your memory lapses are becoming more noticeable these days Graham .Kerr didn’t start work till around 6 am. So if the Morris pulled into the south, and only exit/ent. turn in , after 10 pm. and before 6 Am. No one would have been there to see it.
              Finally , I disagree with you on the length of the old lay- by Versus the newer version (which of course does have a south ent. and norther exit) I know photographs can mess with ones perspective, but I would say the old pull off was around 250 yards long, the new one considerably more.

              Comment


              • I do see this case as a major conspiracy having taken place. Therefore it follows , I am endeavouring to get to the bottom of each of the enigmas, and when there is as many as I have logged down it become quite difficult to see people’s point of view, re, it’s not possible ,or unlikely to be a conspiracy .

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                • Ok. Page 36 . Bob Woffinden. ‘HANRATTY THE FINAL VERDICT.‘ 1999. describes how the police thought they were onto something , only to find, as stated the two numerators had in fact been reassigned.

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                  • Yes well, Mr Moste, none of us is getting any younger, and it is a long time since I read the books. However, I just checked Foot and Woffinden.
                    Both say that the gunman ordered Gregsten to turn into the lay-by at the southern end, drive to the far end then turn the car round so it faces south. Neither of them say that the north end of the lay-by was a dead-end; and if I've read somewhere that is was, then I've forgotten it. But where did you read that the lay-by was a dead-end?

                    FWIW I drove past the old lay-by only, never pulled in, and that was many years ago. So I can't give you any idea from my viewpoint if the old lay-by was longer or shorter than the new one - which certainly is long. But I will concede that Kerr's shift began at 6.00am.

                    With regard to my 'memory-lapses', we all have them, but if I may say so I am not looking for evidence of a conspiracy in the A6 Case. You are. And if I may also say so, you have a very inventive turn of mind when it comes to this - and I don't mean to cause offence by saying so.

                    Graham
                    We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                    Comment


                    • OK, now I've dug my books out from where they were gathering dust, turning to Foot between Pages 144 and 145 are several photos relating to the A6. On the third page of photos are two shots of the A6 and the lay-by. The top shot is a long view of the A6 from the south, showing the sweeping curve to the left, and the house at the top of the hill. The lay-by is visible but the left curve takes it out of sight, and it is not possible in my opinion to discern whether it had a dead-end or an entrance/exit. The lower shot is an aerial view of the tenting erected over the murder scene and tells us nothing.

                      Woffinden is very mean with his photos, and reproduces none of the murder scene.

                      However, check this out: on this BBC site is a shot taken south of the tenting, and quite close to it. To the left of the tenting is what might be some kind of bank, but because of the tenting it is impossible to tell if this 'banking' extends all the way across the lay-by. Or is it a smaller bit of tenting not visible in Foot's photo? Or a sharp rise in the level of the lay-by? Unfortunately the photo cannot be enlarged.

                      I honestly don't think it really matters whether the lay-by was a dead-end or not, but interesting none the less.

                      Graham
                      We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                      Comment


                      • If the murderer ordered the car to be turned round in the lay-by then he must have had some sort of plan in his mind. Was he already considering an execution? Or maybe he going to turf the couple out in the middle of nowhere and drive south himself? Or was it his intention for everyone to drive back to where they had come from, after his ‘kip,’ as if nothing much had happened?

                        Even if we accept the view that the murderer was some kind of mentally disturbed criminal there still remains a massive problem in relation to his actions. Hanging around a cornfield with a gun. Kidnapping a couple for no gain. A self-pitying monologue. The length of time spent considering his next move. Stopping for petrol and refreshments. The apparent aimlessness of the journey. The absurd decision to have a ‘kip.’

                        You would think that anyone with this degree of psychosis would be under medical supervision, but apparently not. The murderer is able to deposit the car, avoid leaving any forensic material inside, dispose of the murder weapon and pretty much carry on life as normal.

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                        • Sorry, forgot to add the link to the BBC article and pix of the murder scene.

                          http://www.bbc.co.uk/threecounties/c..._feature.shtml

                          Graham
                          We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                          Comment


                          • Quote from Graham : just checked Foot and Woffinden.
                            Both say that the gunman ordered Gregsten to turn into the lay-by at the southern end, drive to the far end then turn the car round so it faces south. Neither of them say that the north end of the lay-by was a dead-end; and if I've read somewhere that is was, then I've forgotten it. But where did you read that the lay-by was a dead-end?

                            Well, reading that , I think we can safely say that the Inference is that it WAS a dead end . Referencing ‘drive to far end indicating that the road terminated at that point, do you not agree ?
                            I think it’s obvious that the Purpose of the three point turn , was as a result of there being no means to exit. As you say it doesn’t really matter, except I like to have a clear picture. And on that score there does appear to be some kind of mound of earth or something just beyond the Crime incident tent.

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                            • From Valerie's trial testimony: "We turned left into this little opening in the verge. After a yard or so there appeared to be a concrete road running from left to right in front of us. The man said ‘Turn right.’ We did and some yards ahead of us we could see in the headlights that there was a dead end. We got to the end. The man said ‘Turn the car around and stop.’ So we stopped."

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                              • Thanks Alfie. Now that that's sorted (and I wasn't aware of what she said about the lay-by) maybe Moste can throw a little more light on his Conspiracy Theory, as he sees it.

                                G
                                We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

                                Comment

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