A6 Rebooted

[cobalt]

I know little about revolvers but can imagine that shells could be tipped out if the weapon was broken open. However I would think the individual bullets still had to be placed into the chamber one at a time; they couldn’t be dropped in.

So yes, there should have been prints. We know for sure that if any prints were found they could not be identified as belonging to James Hanratty. I’m struggling to see how there would have been a series of superimposed prints since I assume a shooter would lift the cartridges from the box where they were packed.

The discovery of the revolver and the cartridges does not stand comparison. The gun was stashed, in the knowledge it would be found fairly soon, so was deliberately wiped clean of prints. That does not apply to cartridge cases which accidentally and presumably unknown to the person handling the weapon fell down the back of a chair.

[Graham]

The cartridges were handled by two people at the very least - Mr Crocker and Mrs Galves at the time of their discovery. Also possibly later by others, including perhaps police.

Would a fingerprint survive the heat generated by the ignition and explosion of the propellant in the cartridge when the gun is fired? Don't know, but I rather doubt it.

The gun itself was definitelty wiped clean, and one assumes that the article used to clean it was the hankie with which it was found. Hanratty did rather shoot himself in the foot (no pun intended) when he remarked to France that the back seat of a bus is a good place to dispose of unwanted goods. But did Hanratty himself actually clean the gun and put it there? And who did his laundry for him?

Graham

[Joshua Rogan]

[SIZE=16px][FONT=times new roman]I know little about revolvers but can imagine that shells could be tipped out if the weapon was broken open.

If the gun was an Enfield No.2 (standard British issue. 38 revolver in WW2) it would automatically eject all 6 cartridges when broken open.

[Graham]

If the gun was an Enfield No.2 (standard British issue. 38 revolver in WW2) it would automatically eject all 6 cartridges when broken open.

Thanks Joshua. I was only dimly aware of this feature.

Graham

[cobalt]

It seems Graham’s assumption regarding cartridge shells is correct, according to what I have gleaned from the internet. The heat generated from a fired bullet destroys the ability to collect fingerprints in 99% of cases. Or did. Within the last two years a chemical process has been developed which can detect fingerprints in around 25% of the cases and do so long after sweat or the like has evaporated. The heat from firing actually ingrains the fingerprint into the brass casing and it can be retrieved. I came across a murder where ten year old cartridges were being tested by this method. Not much chance of the Vienna Hotel cartridge cases still being around however.

So the fact no prints were gathered from the cartridge cases was of no significance in 1961 and does not support my belief that the cases were planted.

[cobalt]

So why do I still suspect the cartridge cases were planted? Well, according to the prosecution argument these cases must have come from firing the weapon before the actual crime. James Hanratty has acquired the weapon, presumably from Dixie France or perhaps another criminal contact, and naturally enough has done some preliminary shooting to get ‘the feel’ of the gun. Where did he carry out his practice? No one seems to know. Presumably a quiet wooded area on the outskirts of North London. Hanratty seems quite a chatty type yet there is no record of him informing anyone about this new game with his new toy. He doesn’t even take along a friend to share his excitement. Remember his only crime at this point is illegal possession of a firearm so he has no need to be tight-lipped amongst friends.

Not only that, after his shooting practice Hanratty does not remove the shells from the revolver, where they could have been dumped in some wood and remained undiscovered, but completely unnecessarily brings them with him to the Vienna Hotel. This is rather foolish but then many believe Hanratty was precisely that. He then compounds that foolishness by breaking open the gun inside his room in the Vienna Hotel and allows two shell casings to fall down the back of a chair. Hanratty may be of low education but he is numerate enough to know how many shots he has fired and how many casings he needs to retrieve: yet he apparently makes no attempt to collect the ones which have spilled from the gun. This is not behaviour easily associated with an experienced criminal besotted with his precious new toy.

The discovery of the cartridge cases came on the day of Nudds’ sacking which was quite fortuitous, for had Nudds stumbled upon them then few would have believed his account. We can assume that Nudds did not run a tight ship and that cleaning duties would have been lax under his laissez-faire regime. For all that, it is hard to believe that Mr. Crocker could stumble upon the cases without much difficulty whereas cleaners with vacuum cleaners, knocking into furniture and wielding polishing cloths had missed them for around three weeks. Did no cleaner feel the need to tidy up the ripped undercloth in the chair? The most likely reason they did not notice the cartridge cases is because they were not there.

As a final thought: if I was breaking open a gun in a hotel room I would instinctively sit on the bed so that any casings fell onto the bed covers. Sitting in an armchair leaves less room for manoeuvre and nowhere to collect the cases easily.

[Graham]

Cobalt, the main reason that Mr Pichler sent Mr Crocker to The Vienna was his concern that Nudds and wife were useless, and that his hotel was being run down as a result of their inability to run it. I think it highly likely that Crocker, who was manager of the two hotels in Mr Pichler's 'group', had visited the Nudds on at least one previous occasion to give them due warning. If I recall correctly, Nudds had also had his fingers in the till. Various writers on the A6 have described The Vienna as a 'doss house'; this isn't quite correct. It wasn't The Ritz by any means, but was a cheap hotel for the likes of foreign visitors, sales reps, illicit lovers, etc. I recall reading that it was also used by gay men. I've visited it, and these days it is very up-market apartments in a very up-market part of London.

If my reading of Nudds and Madame Nudds is correct, they didn't do a hell of a lot at all. Also, if my reading of the hotel records is correct, Room 24 hadn't been used, with one exception, since the night Hanratty stayed there. The exception was an Indian gentleman. He may well have spotted the cartridge cases (but I strongly doubt it), and thought it was just something the crazy English got up to in hotel rooms. Further, I would honestly doubt if any 'cleaners with vacuum cleaners' had been anywhere near that room after the Indian gent's stay. Hence the cases stayed where they were within the upholstery of the chair. The most likely reason that the cleaners, if such existed at The Vienna, failed to notice the ripped chair is that no cleaners actually visited that room.

Once more, I would refer you to NickB's post - that is, there was no point in simply dropping the cases in Room 24 unless they could be linked directly to James Hanratty. And they were not, because there was no link of any kind in Room 24. No note saying, "These cases were fired from the gun used in the A6, and the gun was owned by James Hanratty". Unless such a link was left, planting just the cases was pointless.

Regarding why Hanratty allowed the cases to fall into the upholstery of the chair, Joshua Rogan has pointed out that the gun, an Enfield No 2, had a mechanism that automatically ejected the spent cases when the gun was broken open. Maybe Hanratty was unaware of this, and taken by surprise, perhaps collecting all but two of the cases, and then not bothering - he was like that - to look for them. We'll never know.

Hanratty quite obviously informed no-one, certainly no-one in his family, that he had a new gun and had been out in the woods practising with it. In fact, most of the time, his family didn't have the faintest idea where he was. There is no definite proof that he had even fired the gun before the murder night. Maybe the spent cases were in the gun when he received it. Certainly, he knew how to re-load it in the lay-by that night, so he must have either figured that out for himself or been given tuition. We'll never know that, either.

Graham

PS: it's good to see that the A6 Thread is active again.

[moste]

If the set up was, that the two cartridges were planted , knowing the firing pin marks would correlate with the Enfield being found where Hanratty boasted to France about the hiding place for junk . Then with a little help from the likes of Ewer, and the frame up was always going to come together. If not a plant the killer would have been sat on the bed, no question, who sits on easy chairs in alcoves of cheap hotels. It was a stitch up! P.S. Graham, according to Foot, the Vienna was one of 3 satellite hotels run by and answerable to the ‘Broadway’

[cobalt]

The Vienna Hotel being described as a ‘doss house’ is one of several dubious terms that hover around the A6 Case. Alphon as a ‘loner’ is another, along with his father being a ‘Records Clerk’ at Scotland Yard, Gregsten being a ‘Civil Servant’ and William Ewer running an umbrella repair shop. If the Vienna Hotel was not a ‘doss house’ but merely a hotel at the cheaper end then all the more reason rooms would be aired and cleaned, even if no one had occupied them. I can’t believe any hotel would leave a room uncleaned for a period of around three weeks, even under the management of Nudds.

The cartridge cases are crucial to the prosecution case for without them it’s hard to envisage how James Hanratty could ever have come to the attention of the police in relation to the A6 crime. I’m not sure I understand NickB’s point about the cartridges not being a good enough clue to trace Hanratty: they clearly were. A week earlier the Ryan/Hanratty link could have been established by the police when they made their unexplained visit to Swiss Cottage. Checking the recent occupants of the room was duly carried out- Alphon and an Indian gentleman included- although no one seems to have questioned whether the cartridge cases had been there for three weeks or three years. That left Hanratty, a man never known to carry a gun or been known to visit Taplow but it was all they had left. The case against him could be built from there to try and establish links between the victim, the car and gun.

[moste]

Quote :
Hanratty quite obviously informed no-one, certainly no-one in his family, that he had a new gun and had been out in the woods practising with it. Unquote . He obviously wouldn’t tell his folks about a newly acquired gun. At a pinch he might share it with Michael ,who isn’t going to say anything to anyone . However I feel since France , (who has been alluded to as owning a veritable arsenal under his doorman’s reception counter) was a confidant and mentor back in the good old days ,would certainly be aware ,) if not supplying ) Hanratty’s weaponry . Since France became hateful and aggressive towards Hanratty after he knew the cops were after him for the A6 killing. Blabbing of his knowledge as to where his young friend hid stuff on buses. He clearly would have had no scruples, sharing his knowledge of any gun.

[Graham]

Cobalt, as far as I recall without digging into my books, the Ryan/Hanratty link was made after the cartridges were found.

I travelled a lot during my working life, both here and overseas, and let me tell you that I stayed in more than a few 'hotels' which would have made The Vienna seem like the Hilton. Filthy bathrooms, un-hoovered carpets, mould in the walls, and on one occasion a pair of soiled men's underpants in the bed! (That was actually in Alabama...could have been the Bates Motel).

Graham

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Cobalt, as far as I recall without digging into my books, the Ryan/Hanratty link was made after the cartridges were found.

I travelled a lot during my working life, both here and overseas, and let me tell you that I stayed in more than a few 'hotels' which would have made The Vienna seem like the Hilton. Filthy bathrooms, un-hoovered carpets, mould in the walls, and on one occasion a pair of soiled men's underpants in the bed! (That was actually in Alabama...could have been the Bates Motel).

Graham

Ha Ha!
If I ever have the misfortune to find a pair of soiled underpants, I'm definitely using the euphemism "Alabama pillow mints".

[moste]

The Vienna Hotel being described as a ‘doss house’ is one of several dubious terms that hover around the A6 Case. Alphon as a ‘loner’ is another, along with his father being a ‘Records Clerk’ at Scotland Yard, Gregsten being a ‘Civil Servant’ and William Ewer running an umbrella repair shop. If the Vienna Hotel was not a ‘doss house’ but merely a hotel at the cheaper end then all the more reason rooms would be aired and cleaned, even if no one had occupied them. I can’t believe any hotel would leave a room uncleaned for a period of around three weeks, even under the management of Nudds.

The cartridge cases are crucial to the prosecution case for without them it’s hard to envisage how James Hanratty could ever have come to the attention of the police in relation to the A6 crime. I’m not sure I understand NickB’s point about the cartridges not being a good enough clue to trace Hanratty: they clearly were. A week earlier the Ryan/Hanratty link could have been established by the police when they made their unexplained visit to Swiss Cottage. Checking the recent occupants of the room was duly carried out- Alphon and an Indian gentleman included- although no one seems to have questioned whether the cartridge cases had been there for three weeks or three years. That left Hanratty, a man never known to carry a gun or been known to visit Taplow but it was all they had left. The case against him could be built from there to try and establish links between the victim, the car and gun.

I’ve been checking Woffindens chronology. The Janet / Ewer encounter with Hanratty on the Finchley road Swiss Cottage, was eight days after the murder on 31st. Aug. The gun with ammunition found on the bus the day following the murder 24th Aug. cartridges found 11th Sept in the Vienna Hotel.18 days after the murder. The more one considers the incident at Swiss cottage the harder it is to just walk away from. It’s no use Ewer saying ,’ oh it’s just newspaper nonsense ‘, It has to have happened just as reported. There were shop keepers involved , the owner of the photographic studio was an ex- policeman, the flower shop lady confirmed Ewer checking her book with Ryan’s name in it. He did call 999. Here lies the police link with Ryan and Mrs Hanratty ,no question.Forget intuition and 6th since nonsense, herein for me lies the beginnings of the Frame-up. And even if you’re of the persuasion that Hanratty was guilty as charged, consider Ewer as the architect, and the Swiss cottage fiasco was Ewer spotting his partner in crime, within arms length ,after being told to lay low for a few months...Panic Stations!
I think the police considered moving on the sighting at Swiss cottage, but decided against it ,as it would be thought of as just too fantastic to accept. So a week and a half later they implemented the cartridge case drop.

[moste]

Hi Graham,

I agree with your depiction of Charles France. He was definitely a shadowy character in London's underworld but I get the feeling he was a 'gofa' and a rather ineffectual type at that. I think that Hanratty had often put his hand in his pocket to aid France's wife when money was short. Charles France may well have claimed to regret the day he met Hanratty but, in reality, it was Hanratty's life that spiraled out of control within weeks of bumping into his old prison lag, Dixie. Shortly after this accidental meeting, Hanratty had abandoned the business with his father and returned to his bad old ways, passing a good amount of loot from his burglaries to his 'new friend' Louise Anderson, a woman introduced to him by Dixie. And there were Dixie and Anderson, key witnesses for the prosecution, helping to send Hanratty to the gallows. None of them come out of the whole sordid episode looking like model citizens. I wonder how different things would have been for the Hanratty and France families if that fateful meeting had never taken place?

There you go. I didn’t realize Louise Anderson had been introduced to Hanratty by Dixie. So since Anderson and Ewer were business associates, there is some reasoning behind Dixie knowing Ewer through Anderson, which further makes sense of the reported visit by Dixie to Ewer shop in something of a lather, supposedly ‘being sorry for the death of his brother-in-law, an event that apparently foxed Ewer , and prompted him to exclaim, ‘ I’ve never seen the man before or since’ ( The Lying Toad)

[OneRound]

Hi folks - further to recent posts, I'm struggling to understand why those directly or indirectly responsible for Gregsten's murder would want to set up Hanratty. Could anyone provide some sort of explanation please?
Thanks,
OneRound

PS Graham - I'll PM you about getting my underpants back.