A6 Rebooted

[moste]

You mightn't believe this Moste, but Allan Madwar's birth was registered in the district of Medway. A demilitarised zone in Kent, so no battles going on there in 1932.

Good stuff

[NickB]

After Madwar reported the car, the police and journalists descended upon the scene and interviewed local residents who told them that the car had been there since the morning. Sidney Lawrence and Doris Ahoe are two Avondale Crescent residents that we know about who made such statements. The morning arrival was accepted by both prosecution and defence at the trial.

There are also the sightings of Skillet and Trower. If you dismiss their evidence and side with Paddy Hogan, he also said he saw the Morris Minor turn into Avondale Crescent and park in the morning. Hogan says he again saw the car parked there in the afternoon and also in the evening when the police were there. This echoes Ahoe's evidence that she saw the car parked at about 7am and on two or more occasions that she later passed up and down the Crescent.

It is claimed that what they saw could have been Doreen Milne’s similar car parked opposite. But she did not park her car there until about 8.15am. Also if they saw the police activity around the murder car, they would not have been confused about the particular car or its position.

It appears there was only one resident, Margaret Thompson, who claimed that the car arrived in the evening. She said that at around 5.30pm she left home with her 3 year old son to go shopping and on her return at 5.45pm she found the footpath obstructed by a Morris Minor car parked on it, forcing her and her young son to walk into the roadway. But if you look at photos of the parked car it was not obstructing the pavement in such a way.

Woffinden seems to have been persuaded by Thompson’s evidence. But he doesn’t explain how this tallies with his claim that Alphon parked the car, when he was known to be at the Vienna earlier and elsewhere in the late afternoon and evening.

[Sherlock Houses]

Mr Typo is having a field day recently, it must be contagious.

[OneRound]

After Madwar reported the car, the police and journalists descended upon the scene and interviewed local residents who told them that the car had been there since the morning. Sidney Lawrence and Doris Ahoe are two Avondale Crescent residents that we know about who made such statements. The morning arrival was accepted by both prosecution and defence at the trial.

There are also the sightings of Skillet and Trower. If you dismiss their evidence and side with Paddy Hogan, he also said he saw the Morris Minor turn into Avondale Crescent and park in the morning. Hogan says he again saw the car parked there in the afternoon and also in the evening when the police were there. This echoes Ahoe's evidence that she saw the car parked at about 7am and on two or more occasions that she later passed up and down the Crescent.

It is claimed that what they saw could have been Doreen Milne’s similar car parked opposite. But she did not park her car there until about 8.15am. Also if they saw the police activity around the murder car, they would not have been confused about the particular car or its position.

It appears there was only one resident, Margaret Thompson, who claimed that the car arrived in the evening. She said that at around 5.30pm she left home with her 3 year old son to go shopping and on her return at 5.45pm she found the footpath obstructed by a Morris Minor car parked on it, forcing her and her young son to walk into the roadway. But if you look at photos of the parked car it was not obstructing the pavement in such a way.

Woffinden seems to have been persuaded by Thompson’s evidence. But he doesn’t explain how this tallies with his claim that Alphon parked the car, when he was known to be at the Vienna earlier and elsewhere in the late afternoon and evening.

Hi Nick - thanks for your post. Good and helpful details as usual.

I suppose it's just possble that the car was moved between it obstructing Margaret Thompson and the photos being taken (perhaps by the police soon after arriving to get better access to it).

Anyway, regardless of their accuracy or inaccuracy, I do consider it very wrong that the claims of Mrs Thompson - along with those of others, particularly William Lee - were not disclosed to the defence to investigate further and perhaps use to challenge the claims of those damaging to James Hanratty. Echoing Cobalt's recent post, this does not establish any innocence on the part of Hanratty but imo it again points to Hanratty being denied the fair trial to which he was entitled.

Best regards,
OneRound

[NickB]

One of the photos is at Topfoto:

https://www.topfoto.co.uk/cdn/topfoto/previews/11193/aae2355acdb21e1947b21abe0e6a935c/5/4f4a15d151963dabd8c87bf0f5c9db14/3357843.jpg

The accompanying description says it shows the murder car in Avondale Crescent "where it was parked all day". It appears to be quoting from a news report the following day as it refers to "yesterday". I don't know which newspaper this appeared in, but the Daily Mirror used Topfoto.

[moste]

Sharp picture this. I wonder what policemen were scrutinizing in other photos, from side shots. Maybe the slight bend of the bumper?
Clearly showing is the after market reversing light which Gregsten supposedly flashed constantly at one part of the trip to alert others of his plight, wonder if he was ... - - - ...

[moste]

On ' the car being parked badly' I've never really agreed with this. Nowadays, the cars and vans park in Avondale crescent as they always have ,and much the same as they do on most suburban side streets , that is, half on ,half off the pavement. The misinformation that Ms. Thompson gave threw me for quite a while I must admit , believing that the car with only one set of wheels on the road and the rest across the pavement( as I say, much as they do today) she obviously wouldn't have been able to get by. this of course is not the case, as some photos show, and even now there is ample space for probably even two prams to pass each other quite easily the pavement here being around 9 feet wide as indeed it is today, The only alternative to this is, if the police hade moved the car because it was completely blocking the pavement, and I think this very unlikely.
Incidentally, why, ( as with the strange leaving of the two bodies, right by thick shrubbery rather than hidden IN the shrubbery), did the killer leave the car in an open quickly to be recognised location, rather than, say, in a multi car park NCP or whatever? All very odd.

[Sherlock Houses]

After Madwar reported the car, the police and journalists descended upon the scene and interviewed local residents who told them that the car had been there since the morning. Sidney Lawrence and Doris Ahoe are two Avondale Crescent residents that we know about who made such statements. The morning arrival was accepted by both prosecution and defence at the trial.

There are also the sightings of Skillet and Trower. If you dismiss their evidence and side with Paddy Hogan, he also said he saw the Morris Minor turn into Avondale Crescent and park in the morning. Hogan says he again saw the car parked there in the afternoon and also in the evening when the police were there. This echoes Ahoe's evidence that she saw the car parked at about 7am and on two or more occasions that she later passed up and down the Crescent.

Solely for the sake of accuracy Nick [which is important after all] Doris's surname should read Athoe.

[Sherlock Houses]

Sharp picture this. I wonder what policemen were scrutinizing in other photos, from side shots. Maybe the slight bend of the bumper?
Clearly showing is the after market reversing light which Gregsten supposedly flashed constantly at one part of the trip to alert others of his plight, wonder if he was ... - - - ...

I know it's a black and white photo Moste but even so it's hard to spot either the three strips of red tape [on the bumper] or any torn green label on the rear window, by which Edward Blackhall was allegedly able to identify the Morris Minor.
What has always been unclear is whether the car was abandoned locked or unlocked with the ignition keys still in place.

The segment of this Beatles video between 2.21 and 2.28 makes interesting viewing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODIvONHPqpk

[NickB]

Solely for the sake of accuracy Nick [which is important after all] Doris's surname should read Athoe.

Happy to admit my mistake. I've called her Athoe before, so don't know why I left out the 't' this time.

Doris Athoe lived at 6 Avondale Crescent which appears to be on the opposite side of the road from where the murder car was parked, and her statement mentions that she saw the police activity around it. Therefore I do not see how she could have mistaken it for Doreen Milne's car which would have been parked on her side of the road. Perhaps even right outside her house. Plus ... Athoe said she saw it around 7am whereas Milne said she did not park her car until around 8.15.

[Sherlock Houses]

There's so much conflicting evidence from various witnesses residing in and around Avondale Crescent that fateful Wednesday that it's nigh on impossible to determine the truth of the matter. It's undoubtedly one of the most mysterious aspects of the entire case.
The most likely scenario for me has almost always been that the murder car was abandoned in Avondale Crescent around 7'ish that Wednesday morning before the hue and cry began in earnest. The ideal opportunity for the murderer to scarper and lessen the chances of capture. Otherwise it would involve him leaving the murder scene and then driving northwards and aimlessly around various places in England with the ever increasing risk of being spotted and caught [unless he had some pre-arranged external assistance and a safe haven/garage, possibly in the Wanstead area, to retreat to, enabling both him and the car to lie low for several hours]. But for that to be true means disregarding the oft quoted evidence of the likes of William Lee, Charles Drayton and Sidney Lawrence. It would also mean that the much sought after murder car, with it's bloodied interior and bent front registration plate, was lying idle and undetected from prying eyes near that wooden fence for almost half a day. In the height of summer during the school holidays. Not impossible of course but seemingly very unlikely.

[cobalt]

SH,
I find it very hard to reach much of a conclusion about when the car was dumped myself. That’s why the contemporary newspaper article, which claimed an anonymous tip -off was interesting, because it suggested the car was deposited in the evening.

I was interested by your choice of the word ‘scarper’ in relation to the official version of the crime, which has the murderer dumping the car in the early morning near an underground station and then making himself scarce. ‘Scarper’ is exactly what I would expect a guilty man to do yet that is not what the prosecution claimed. According to them James Hanratty hung around the London area for the next 24 hours, depositing the weapon underneath the backseat of a bus. It’s not clear where they believe he was in the next few days until he is accepted as being in the French household on Saturday 26^th August. (Although Hanratty claimed it was Friday 25^th.) They acknowledge a telegram that was sent on the 24^th August from Liverpool but whether the police believed it to be genuine or sent on his behalf was never tested. That scarcely meets my definition of ‘scarpering’ any more than does Hanratty’s later venture into Eire.

If anything Hanratty, if he was the guilty party, was lying low, holed up in some friend’s house. The most likely billet would be Dixie France’s house which may explain France’s unhelpful statements in respect of Hanratty. I am surmising that France supplied the gun, had to arrange for it to be dumped and gave refuge to a murderer in the hope the heat would die down. Perhaps Hanratty was nowhere near Liverpool and Rhyl between 22^nd and 25^th August as the police suspected, but they knew they could put pressure on France because he had supplied the weapon and harboured a killer. Pretending to believe that Hanratty had been, belatedly, in the Liverpool area helped the prosecution strike a deal with France and also bolster the narrative of Hanratty trying to ‘scarper’ after the event. So far as I can gather the prosecution were remarkably uninterested as to where Hanratty stayed the night after he’d dumped the car (23^rd Aug) and before he dumped the gun the next morning (24^th Aug).

The bullet casings in the Vienna Hotel didn’t have any fingerprints on them, which was extremely good foresight by a man who did not realise he was going to drop them. In another respect they have the fingerprints of Dixie France all over them, the man who probably supplied the gun and later ditched it. Whether he did this to draw attention to Alphon, who he would have known through criminal contacts had been arrested earlier, or Hanratty, whom he knew had stayed at the Vienna Hotel is not clear.
And that is my final word as devil’s advocate for the prosecution.

[NickB]

I doubt he would have stayed with France, because of the family being there. Someone like Fisher would be more likely. Pamela Patt's description of the man who could have deposited the gun is indicative of someone who had slept rough.

Spitfire suggested he stayed at a b&b in London. Photos of Hanratty were not released when he was arrested, so there was little danger of a b&b manager stepping forward to say he had stayed there. Hanratty told Kleinman he was worried that they might release photos, perhaps with that in mind. He claimed to have stayed at a b&b in New Brighton when on the run.

[cobalt]

I assume the France family would have been viewed as honest geezers by Hanratty so lying low in their home should have presented no particular problem, especially given the pickle the father now found himself in. Keeping Hanratty close at hand would be better than him doing his rounds and speaking out of turn, if Hanratty were guilty. Hanratty had 24 hours between dumping the car and dumping the gun, so he had to be eating and sitting down somewhere. Once his photo appeared in the media several people in Liverpool thought they recognised him, but not one bed and breakfast manager from London did so. Hanratty could not have dumped the gun in London if he was in New Brighton.

Pamela Patt’s description is indeed consistent with a man who has slept rough and hardly excludes Hanratty on a superficial reading, although if Hanratty, he seems to have acquired a white raincoat since committing the crime. It is strange that the police did not seek to firm up this line of evidence by asking her to an ID parade containing James Hanratty. Any identification Pamela Patt could offer was surely worth more than that of Skillett and Trower and a great deal more than France’s recollection of what Hanratty allegedly said. Unless they did try this, but when shown a photo of Hanratty she failed to recognise him, hence the lack of interest in her evidence. Sherrard should surely have taken a deposition from her to establish what she knew.

[moste]

And of course , the elderly lady in the gallery of the courtroom was convinced that Hanrattys innocence could be proven from interviewing Pamela Patt. judging from her earnest outburst