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  • It may or may not be a gas meter case or a gong show but it certainly is a case of ABH.

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    • Spitfire

      The phrase 'gas meter case' is not one I have ever come across. Do we know what it means? If it implies some sort of insde job, it's not surprising that an experienced plod would tend to that view since so many murders are committed by someone acquainted with the victim. Random, motiveless attacks are exceeding rare.

      I believe it was the underworld view that some who had relevant information did not come forward for the wholly understandable reason that they did not wish to get involved. If true, that implies the killer was not a lone wolf, but I am not sure what these 'underworld whispers' are worth, even assuming that they are not fictional.

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      • Post deleted!
        Last edited by moste; 04-19-2019, 09:54 PM. Reason: Edited out in favour of an improved version

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        • Originally posted by Yossel View Post
          Spitfire

          The phrase 'gas meter case' is not one I have ever come across. Do we know what it means? If it implies some sort of insde job, it's not surprising that an experienced plod would tend to that view since so many murders are committed by someone acquainted with the victim. Random, motiveless attacks are exceeding rare.

          I believe it was the underworld view that some who had relevant information did not come forward for the wholly understandable reason that they did not wish to get involved. If true, that implies the killer was not a lone wolf, but I am not sure what these 'underworld whispers' are worth, even assuming that they are not fictional.
          Gas meter job, usually refers to a family member being involved in a domestic crime . An insensitive phrase for a Chief Superintendent to use considering the enormity of this crime. I suspect he wished he hadn’t said it right away, because he tried to put a different slant on the phrase if I remember rightly.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by moste View Post

            Gas meter job, usually refers to a family member being involved in a domestic crime . An insensitive phrase for a Chief Superintendent to use considering the enormity of this crime. I suspect he wished he hadn’t said it right away, because he tried to put a different slant on the phrase if I remember rightly.
            That would imply the involvement of Mrs G and/or Ewer, maybe others too. Whilst that is no less plausible than the idea it was Hanratty acting alone as some sort of trial-run for later crimes, it lacks for hard evidence. It also bumps up against one or two rather implausibe assumptions, so I don't really buy it.

            Trouble is, I don't see anything else I really do buy.

            Nite all.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NickB View Post
              But her first evidence was about someone who 'specifically' said he was called Jim.
              Do you think that was before or after she had been interviewed by Acott.?

              Comment


              • I won’t argue with your assessment of my scenario Yossel. It does have the advantage of explaining many of the nagging issues connected with the A6 murder: the apparent lack of motive; the cold-blooded ruthlessness of the shootings after a seemingly pointless five hour journey; the lack of forensic material from the car; the uncertainty over the identikit; the failure of the attacker to be seen anywhere near the cornfield. However I am sure others will point out weaknesses and conclude that I am following a false thread, based on reasoning and assumptions no stronger than that which convicted Hanratty.

                I recognise that at times I was pontificating rather like the very armchair psychologist I have cautioned against in other posts, however when considering the motive for Ms. Storie perhaps giving false testimony it was unavoidable. It’s possible that three people gave false testimony, not for purely selfish reasons, but to protect the Gregsten children and that is what resulted in a miscarriage of justice.

                It would be interesting to know how much scrutiny the police gave to the stated whereabouts of both Janet Gregsten and William Ewer at the time of the crime. I wonder how strongly their alibis would stand up if subjected to the scrutiny that James Hanratty’s Liverpool and Rhyl alibis have been subsequently. Purely from memory, I think they may have provided alibis for each other. Clothing belonging to Janet Gregsten was taken for examination by the police if memory serves right, but again I may be wrong. I have no books on the case available, having read only Foot'’s in the mid 1970s, and rely on the detailed knowledge of those who post on here.

                Was there some significance in the duffel bag? I remember the Soham Case where, before his arrest, Ian Huntley kept talking about ‘'the bath'’ in statements to the media. His girlfriend was having a bath when the girls came by. His dog had got dirty and he was washing the dog in the bath. The grim reality seems to have been that there was no girlfriend or dog in the bath, but rather that at least one of the girls was murdered in the bath. The bath was playing on his mind.

                Why was the duffel bag in the foot well in the front passenger seat in the first place? It would have made more sense to fling it on the back seat or stuff it into the boot. Were there items inside which were needed by the couple? What was in it? I have heard dirty laundry mentioned previously, but not sure why that would have been the case. Why would the killer assume it contained material helpful for his inexplicable decision to tie the couple up before having a kip? How did he even know the bag was there? How easy is it to tie two people up when you have a gun in one hand and are wearing gloves?

                Comment


                • [QUOTE=Yossel;n706779]And the sighting of the Morris Minor on the A12, Cobalt?

                  Interesting and imaginative theory, but short on supporting evidence, I think.[/QUOTE

                  A12 I’ve forgotten which one that was. Are you of the opinion that one of the sightings was authentic ? In any event , a sighting wouldn’t preclude a woman driving the car .The so called sightings where a description was forthcoming are very dodgy.

                  I think considering Janet as a suspect by amateur armchair detectives has always been a no go issue .The top authors won’t even consider it possible, Paul Foot considered her a lovely person and I think I read that she had told him, she was having second thoughts on Hanrattys guilt in later years, all in all it sounds like they got along quite well. Being a Paul Foot fan of sorts, Cobalts scenario never crossed my mind, but, you never know.

                  Comment


                  • [QUOTE=NickB;n706712]
                    Originally posted by cobalt View Post
                    Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool'
                    [LEFT]Sorry Cobalt but I am totally unaware of any burglaries committed by Hanratty in those highlighted cities, perhaps I've overlooked something all these years.


                    I thought he robbed a house in Liverpool on 25-Jul-61.
                    No, it was in Crosby.
                    *************************************
                    "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                    "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by cobalt View Post
                      'Hanratty was more of a drifter in the sense that he burgled in London, Leeds, Manchester and Liverpool'
                      Sorry Cobalt but I am totally unaware of any burglaries committed by Hanratty in those highlighted cities, perhaps I've overlooked something all these years.


                      SH,

                      Any apologies due are mine. He presumably had criminal contacts in these areas outwith London but there is no record of a burglary being committed by Hanratty.
                      I think it was established that Hanratty stole a car in either Leeds or Manchester area.
                      Hanratty stole a Jaguar in London, Cobalt, in early October and then drove it, without any problems, over 200 miles to Manchester. A feat the clueless A6 gunman would have had enormous difficulty in accomplishing.
                      *************************************
                      "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                      "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Spitfire View Post
                        ing wheel



                        And where and when was this statement made, and where can we see it?
                        Well since according to Storie "Mike's stone cold hands" were gripping the steering wheel it's a fair assumption that she had to peel them from the steering wheel before attempting to remove his body from the driver's seat. Why not take a peep at page 25 of Lord Russell's book ?
                        *************************************
                        "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                        "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by moste View Post
                          From 2016

                          Yes, I knew exit wounds can make a fearful mess. Is it possible Sherlock, for you to scan and upload said photos of Gregsten, from page 82 ?
                          To clarify matters, Moste, here are those autopsy photos which were published in Keith Simpsons 1969 book "Forensic Medicine"....

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Mike Gregsten's autopsy photos 2.jpg
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                          Originally posted by moste View Post
                          I have just finished Keith Simpsons ' Forty Years of Murder' I don't recommend it for the squeamish!. However his attention to detail, and wondrous astuteness as each chapter unfolds, victim by victim, case by case, leaves one filled with awe at his expertise, and professionalism. Then comes the let down. To wit, The A6, Murder, No explanations of findings at the scene from a pathologist stand point required here. No in depth, minute detail of wounds to the victims ,as in other cases, No mention at all of the above mentioned "Cadaveric spasm' No need to go into any serious discussion on this case eh? after all Valerie was there, wasn't she, and as we've all learned that's all that's needed!
                          ......and no mention of any .38 calibre bullet wounds !!! Only .32 calibre wounds suggestive of an automatic weapon. Very careless typo of Keith's, or was he trying to tell us something 17 years after the event ?

                          *************************************
                          "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                          "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                          Comment


                          • Yes a very poignant photo. Often thought we may have two weapons involved here. Though no expert ,I have studied the YouTube stuff that’s available ,(mostly from the States)and would have thought the .38 would have caused more damage. Regardless, Stories wounds are an absolute mystery by any stretch of the imagination. 3 in line holes into and down her arm 2 of which only just below the surface , I would agree on .32 calibre in this case and a cartridge charge of very low velocity. A .38 enfield with normal cartridge charge would easily have passed clean through her arm at ten feet, or a ricochet off a bone and into another part of her body.( see the result by comparison of Gregstens head) a real puzzler. ( ( I use the term ‘cartridge charge’ because I can’t remember the proper terminology but you get the gist, it’s pertaining to the level of explosiveness of the powder in the cartridge, they do come I know in varying levels of potency)

                            Comment


                            • I have no knowledge outside the gun club I briefly frequented as a young man, but these autopsy photos seem to indicate an execution rather than a panic shooting.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NickB View Post
                                But her first evidence was about someone who 'specifically' said he was called Jim.
                                Storie's statement [hidden from Hanratty's defence team for about 13 years] also stated that she didn't believe that 'Jim' was the gunman's real name. She must have had just reason for saying this. Obviously something very noticeable about the manner of the gunman's response to their question "What should we call you ?".
                                *************************************
                                "A body of men, HOLDING THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO NOBODY, ought not to be trusted by anybody." --Thomas Paine ["Rights of Man"]

                                "Justice is an ideal which transcends the expedience of the State, or the sensitivities of Government officials, or private individuals. IT HAS TO BE PURSUED WHATEVER THE COST IN PEACE OF MIND TO THOSE CONCERNED." --'Justice of the Peace' [July 12th 1975]

                                Comment

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