A6 Rebooted

[Graham]

The straight line distance between the Drayton sighting in Bedford (Junction of Ampthill Rd and St John's St) and the A6 near Matlock is 83 miles but the distance by road is somewhat longer. The trouble with using modern route planners is that they will use roads which were not built in 1961, usually motorways. The shortest distance using the A6 would be something in the region of 106 miles making a round trip of 212 miles. The shorter distance would mean driving through the centres of Leicester and Derby.

With the exception of the M1 North, which I don't think existed in 1961, and up-grading/dualling of some roads, today's route would be much the same as it was back then. But in 1961 people weren't in so much of a hurry as they are today.

Graham

[ansonman]

From memory, on this site it was established that Mr. Lee of Matlock had his incident with the car around either 6.30am or 8.30am- there was some problem with a mistake in the appeal papers?

He did not report his encounter until later in the evening, and had mislaid the piece of paper upon which he had written the registration. By this time the car registration had been broadcast on national media. However he was presumably honest, if perhaps not accurate: he did not attempt after all to scribble down the car registration and claim it was from the morning.

He was still alive at the time of the appeal and I think contacted as a witness, when he held to his version of events 40 years earlier.

William Lee was an HGV driver and on 23 August at around 6.30am was driving his lorry south on the A6 approximately 100 miles north of Bedford when a Morris Minor car pulled out from a junction causing him to take evasive action to avoid a collision. So outraged was Mr Lee that he followed the car noting its registration number. Stopping for a break he learned of the murder which had occurred further south on the A6 and the number of the car involved. He called the police and gave a statement. The CCRC discovered this statement in 1998 and Mr Lee was traced and interviewed. He repeated verbatim what he had said in his original statement including the fact that the driver of the MM had been wearing a green woollen hat with a pom pom on it. Later in their investigations the CCRC obtained a file containing photographs which included coloured images of the interior of the car and the boot. When those photographs were enhanced and enlarged, the green woollen hat with a pom pom on it, exactly as described in Mr. Lee's statement to the Derbyshire police in 1961, could be seen in the boot of the car.

Source: "The A6 Murder" by Norma Buddle.

Ansonman

[Spitfire]

With the exception of the M1 North, which I don't think existed in 1961, and up-grading/dualling of some roads, today's route would be much the same as it was back then. But in 1961 people weren't in so much of a hurry as they are today.

Graham

In 1961 the M1 went as far as the present Junction 18 near Crick. It was extended in 1965-68 towards Yorkshire. The point is that staying on the A6 would involve a shorter distance.

[Spitfire]

William Lee was an HGV driver and on 23 August at around 6.30am was driving his lorry south on the A6 approximately 100 miles north of Bedford when a Morris Minor car pulled out from a junction causing him to take evasive action to avoid a collision. So outraged was Mr Lee that he followed the car noting its registration number. Stopping for a break he learned of the murder which had occurred further south on the A6 and the number of the car involved. He called the police and gave a statement. The CCRC discovered this statement in 1998 and Mr Lee was traced and interviewed. He repeated verbatim what he had said in his original statement including the fact that the driver of the MM had been wearing a green woollen hat with a pom pom on it. Later in their investigations the CCRC obtained a file containing photographs which included coloured images of the interior of the car and the boot. When those photographs were enhanced and enlarged, the green woollen hat with a pom pom on it, exactly as described in Mr. Lee's statement to the Derbyshire police in 1961, could be seen in the boot of the car.

Source: "The A6 Murder" by Norma Buddle.

Ansonman

Sherlock Houses and Derrick are adamant that the sighting by Mr Lee took place at 8.30 am, although they do not speak with the authority of Norma Buddle.

[cobalt]

Alfie,

Not quite. Hanratty admitted to having this conversation.

So, revolver found in Hanratty's favourite hiding place + cartridge cases fired by revolver found at the foot of his bed at the Vienna = strong circumstantial evidence that the murder weapon was in Hanratty's possession at the time of the murder, with or without proof that the handkerchief was his.'

I take your first point. France's statement amounted to more than hearsay, so carries more weight.

However as evidence that Hanratty planted the gun on the bus it is still extremely thin; even Acott admitted at the time he could not be sure if it was Hanratty who put it there. Understandably you want to link the bus evidence with the cartridge cases found at the Vienna Hotel, but I will deal with that tomorrow.

Regarding Mr. Lee and the green bobble hat, we seem to have a credibility gap in the established evidence. It would be very helpful if we could clear this up. I have already reminded everyone of the enormous forensic hole which followed upon the discovery of the car, so failing to itemise a bobble hat would not be totally surprising. If Norma is correct, then the bobble hat could have cleared up the case for or against Hanratty pretty easily: he had dyed black hair so that any inevitable shedding of follicles could well have established him as either innocent or guilty.

[Derrick]

Sherlock Houses and Derrick are adamant that the sighting by Mr Lee took place at 8.30 am, although they do not speak with the authority of Norma Buddle.

Charming! What do you know about Norma's authority? You have read just about as much about the case as she has.
If Norma had had access to Mr Lee's statement then she would know that his sighting was at 8:30am not 6:30 as erroneously claimed in the 2002 appeal ruling.

[Graham]

The early-morning claimed sightings are puzzling. I believe Woffo agreed with the opinion of the CCRC investigation, that the car wasn't dumped in Redbridge until a short time before Mr Madwar spotted it and reported it. Maybe. I've never thought the claimed early-morning sightings in Redbridge were all that reliable and convincing, but I think slightly more so than the claimed sightings in Bedford and Matlock. However, either of the latter, if true, would have made the Redbridge sightings impossible, which may or may not mean something positive to Hanratty's supporters.

One question: does anyone know if it was established how much petrol remained in the tank of the Morris when it was found in Avondale Crescent?

Graham

[NickB]

As we have discussed, the later arrival of the car in Redbridge creates a real problem for Alphonites. We know that Alphon checked out of the Vienna in the morning, met Paul Davey in Victoria at 4.50pm, got another top up from his mother at 5.30 and then checked into the Alexander Court Hotel. He could not have done these things and also parked the car, as Woffinden claims, if the car was left there in late afternoon.

[Graham]

The reason I asked about the contents of the fuel-tank when the car was found at Redbridge, is that after the gunman abducted them and made them drive around for a while, he asked how much fuel was in the tank. Valerie told him only one gallon, when she knew there were about two gallons. By now they were near London Airport. The gunman told Gregsten to get petrol and they pulled into a Regent garage where he bought two gallons. So there were perhaps four gallons in the tank when they left the garage and embarked upon their meandering trip northwards.

London Airport to Deadmans Hill is approx. 66 miles. As a Morris Minor 1000 would do around 32 to the gallon, this would mean that two gallons had been used since buying petrol, leaving approx. 2 gallons of perhaps 65 miles in the tank on arrival at Deadmans Hill. After the crime, the gunman drove off, and if he was heading for Bedford or ultimately Matlock he must have driven away northwards on the A6. (Yet Valerie was adamant that the gunman drove away southwards towards London, as was John Smith, a colleague of John Kerr). Deadmans Hill to Matlock is approx. 107 miles, so with only 65 miles-worth of petrol in the tank, the gunman would have had to stop at a garage for more petrol en route. Where he could have stopped to fill up, I haven't a clue. But I feel fairly sure that, as garages in those days were attended service, whoever served him must have got a good look both at the car and the driver, yet as far as I know no garage-attendant between Deadmans Hill and Matlock came forward to report that he had put petrol in a grey Morris Minor that could have been the murder car.

If, as I suspect, the gunman was never in either Bedford or Matlock that morning but returned southwards towards London, then Deadmans Hill to Redbridge is approx. 107 miles, or around 3.4 gallons. As I note above, as there were only two gallons in the tank when the car and its occupants arrived at Deadmans Hill, the gunman must also have put petrol in the tank on his return journey towards London. Again, as far as I know, no garage-attendant between Deadmans Hill and Redbridge came forward to report that he had put petrol into the Morris.

Yet it seems that Harry Hirons, the elderly attendant at the Regent garage near London Airport where two gallons were put into the tank, could actually recall that occasion. Woffo refers to Mr Hirons' evidence as 'news management'.

But not even the careful Woffo, or Foot before him, alludes to the apparent necessity for the gunman to have stopped somewhere for petrol in the early hours after leaving Deadmans Hill.

I'm not trying to intimate that there is anything 'odd' in all this, and it could be that my arithmetic is inaccurate, or I've missed something. But it does seem to me that at some point after the crime, the gunman must have stopped for petrol somewhere, whether he headed northwards or southwards from Deadmans Hill, if Valery is correct about how much petrol was in the car before a further two gallons were put in at Mr Hirons' garage. And at the time of early morning we're talking about, he must have stopped at an all-night garage. Yet no reports of a grey Morris Minor, nervous driver, green bobble-hat, nothing.

Graham

[moste]

The reason I asked about the contents of the fuel-tank when the car was found at Redbridge, is that after the gunman abducted them and made them drive around for a while, he asked how much fuel was in the tank. Valerie told him only one gallon, when she knew there were about two gallons. By now they were near London Airport. The gunman told Gregsten to get petrol and they pulled into a Regent garage where he bought two gallons. So there were perhaps four gallons in the tank when they left the garage and embarked upon their meandering trip northwards.

London Airport to Deadmans Hill is approx. 66 miles. As a Morris Minor 1000 would do around 32 to the gallon, this would mean that two gallons had been used since buying petrol, leaving approx. 2 gallons of perhaps 65 miles in the tank on arrival at Deadmans Hill. After the crime, the gunman drove off, and if he was heading for Bedford or ultimately Matlock he must have driven away northwards on the A6. (Yet Valerie was adamant that the gunman drove away southwards towards London, as was John Smith, a colleague of John Kerr). Deadmans Hill to Matlock is approx. 107 miles, so with only 65 miles-worth of petrol in the tank, the gunman would have had to stop at a garage for more petrol en route. Where he could have stopped to fill up, I haven't a clue. But I feel fairly sure that, as garages in those days were attended service, whoever served him must have got a good look both at the car and the driver, yet as far as I know no garage-attendant between Deadmans Hill and Matlock came forward to report that he had put petrol in a grey Morris Minor that could have been the murder car.

If, as I suspect, the gunman was never in either Bedford or Matlock that morning but returned southwards towards London, then Deadmans Hill to Redbridge is approx. 107 miles, or around 3.4 gallons. As I note above, as there were only two gallons in the tank when the car and its occupants arrived at Deadmans Hill, the gunman must also have put petrol in the tank on his return journey towards London. Again, as far as I know, no garage-attendant between Deadmans Hill and Redbridge came forward to report that he had put petrol into the Morris.

Yet it seems that Harry Hirons, the elderly attendant at the Regent garage near London Airport where two gallons were put into the tank, could actually recall that occasion. Woffo refers to Mr Hirons' evidence as 'news management'.

But not even the careful Woffo, or Foot before him, alludes to the apparent necessity for the gunman to have stopped somewhere for petrol in the early hours after leaving Deadmans Hill.

I'm not trying to intimate that there is anything 'odd' in all this, and it could be that my arithmetic is inaccurate, or I've missed something. But it does seem to me that at some point after the crime, the gunman must have stopped for petrol somewhere, whether he headed northwards or southwards from Deadmans Hill, if Valery is correct about how much petrol was in the car before a further two gallons were put in at Mr Hirons' garage. And at the time of early morning we're talking about, he must have stopped at an all-night garage. Yet no reports of a grey Morris Minor, nervous driver, green bobble-hat, nothing.

Graham

Wrong!
Harry Hirons didn't work at the Regent garage near London airport. He worked at the Shell station at Kingsbury circle.

[moste]

If the petrol gauge had been working it should have read around half a tank. I guess Valerie didn't mention that because she didn't want anyone to know that Mike was too hard up to get it fixed. That's why the killer had to ask how much petrol was there in the tank. That's why Mike had to log his mileage every time he added petrol. The Regent garage employee was interviewed and questioned on how many cars are typically served between 11 and midnight I think it was , and how many people asked for two gallons I can't recall the exact numbers but the answers left one in no doubt that gleaning any useful information was a futile exercise.

[moste]

It looks like the Jack the Ripper dude has been nabbed by scientists working with a much more reliable DNA process than that which was used on the Hanratty case. What repercussions is this likely to have on the A6 forum. Since the J T R threads I would imagine will become redundant. Oh , apparently for those who had Aaron Kosminski , the Polish barber, down as having been the killer you win the coverted cigar

[Spitfire]

London Airport to Deadmans Hill is approx. 66 miles. As a Morris Minor 1000 would do around 32 to the gallon, this would mean that two gallons had been used since buying petrol, leaving approx. 2 gallons of perhaps 65 miles in the tank on arrival at Deadmans Hill. After the crime, the gunman drove off, and if he was heading for Bedford or ultimately Matlock he must have driven away northwards on the A6. (Yet Valerie was adamant that the gunman drove away southwards towards London, as was John Smith, a colleague of John Kerr). Deadmans Hill to Matlock is approx. 107 miles, so with only 65 miles-worth of petrol in the tank, the gunman would have had to stop at a garage for more petrol en route. Where he could have stopped to fill up, I haven't a clue. But I feel fairly sure that, as garages in those days were attended service, whoever served him must have got a good look both at the car and the driver, yet as far as I know no garage-attendant between Deadmans Hill and Matlock came forward to report that he had put petrol in a grey Morris Minor that could have been the murder car.

If, as I suspect, the gunman was never in either Bedford or Matlock that morning but returned southwards towards London, then Deadmans Hill to Redbridge is approx. 107 miles, or around 3.4 gallons. As I note above, as there were only two gallons in the tank when the car and its occupants arrived at Deadmans Hill, the gunman must also have put petrol in the tank on his return journey towards London. Again, as far as I know, no garage-attendant between Deadmans Hill and Redbridge came forward to report that he had put petrol into the Morris.

Yet it seems that Harry Hirons, the elderly attendant at the Regent garage near London Airport where two gallons were put into the tank, could actually recall that occasion. Woffo refers to Mr Hirons' evidence as 'news management'.

But not even the careful Woffo, or Foot before him, alludes to the apparent necessity for the gunman to have stopped somewhere for petrol in the early hours after leaving Deadmans Hill.

I'm not trying to intimate that there is anything 'odd' in all this, and it could be that my arithmetic is inaccurate, or I've missed something. But it does seem to me that at some point after the crime, the gunman must have stopped for petrol somewhere, whether he headed northwards or southwards from Deadmans Hill, if Valery is correct about how much petrol was in the car before a further two gallons were put in at Mr Hirons' garage. And at the time of early morning we're talking about, he must have stopped at an all-night garage. Yet no reports of a grey Morris Minor, nervous driver, green bobble-hat, nothing.

Graham

Hello Graham,

Couple of points.

847 BHN was a Series II Morris Minor with the 803cc OHV engine from the Austin A30. The Morris Minor 1000 came out in 1956 (the same year as 847BHN) and had a 948cc engine. The earlier Morris Minor had the split screen windscreen whereas the Morris Minor 1000 had a one piece screen, which is the easiest method of recognising the difference. A realistic mpg for a Series II Moggie would be in the high 30s early 40s mpg, but with Hanratty at the wheel one could only say that it would be somewhat less.


I calculate the distance from the Bath Road nr Heathrow to Deadman's Hill to be about 60 miles taking in what we know from VS about the route taken. I also calculate that the shortest distance from Deadman's Hill to Avondale Crescent to be nearer 50 to 55 miles. The whole journey could have been accomplished in less than 120 miles and four gallons of petrol would have done the job.

S

[Graham]

Sorry about the confusion re: model type. I had a 1952 Minor with the 803cc sidevalve engine, and I was lucky if I got 30 mpg out of it. Check here: http://www.fuelly.com/car/morris/minor. Re: mileage, I'm now beginning to understand it depends on the website one consults for details.

G

[NickB]

I calculate the distance from the Bath Road nr Heathrow to Deadman's Hill to be about 60 miles

The Appeal says the entire journey from Dorney to Deadmans was between 58 and 65 miles. When I attempted to plot the route on Mapometer it came to 64 miles.

There appear to have been 4 key decisions taken about the direction after setting off north.

1. When they arrive at the A4 he says he doesn’t want to go to Maidenhead so they turn right towards London.
2. In Slough he says he knows a cafe near Northolt Airport where they can get some food so they head off in that direction.
3. But when they arrive at the A40, instead of turning left to the airport they turn right.
4. At Alperton they turn north again, coming close to the Kingsbury area he was familiar with. It may have been his intention to be dropped off somewhere here, but they continued north.