A6 Rebooted

[Herlock Sholmes]

Can I ask opinions on where the gun was found? I struggle to understand why the killer wouldn’t have simple chucked it in the river (as has already been mentioned) or at the very least dumped it somewhere where there was at least a chance of it not been found (or not being found for a few years.) When we add to this the fact that someone like the conductress might have been able to pick him out, or that someone on or near the bus might have recognised or even known him, it appears to have been a big risk when weighed against a simpler and more effective option?

[NickB]

It has been suggested that the gun was planted there to implicate Hanratty, because it was wrapped in his handkerchief. However at that time the technology did not exist to prove that it was his hanky.

When we add to this the fact that someone like the conductress might have been able to pick him out

Very prescient.

‘Pamela Patt's statement (taken on 26 August 1961) was to the effect that the passengers during the northern part of the journey to West Kilburn were all regulars, with one exception. At 6.10am a young man of dirty appearance, wearing a dirty raincoat got on near the Grosvenor Hotel and went to the upper deck, where he was the only passenger for a time. On the return journey the bus was full between Harrow Road and Victoria.’

Her description of the man was: about 25, 5 ft. 7 ins., medium build, thick wavy hair, mousey colour, clean shaven.

Unfortunately Patt was too ill to attend the committal.

[Graham]

JH actually agreed that he'd told Charles France that he used the back seat of buses to get rid of unwanted loot. For years, I have harboured the suspicion that it was France who got him the gun in the first place. It's probably now forgotten that France was 'manager' of The Harmony Cafe in Archer Street, Soho, on the surface a jazz venue, but the meeting-place of all manner of underworld undesirables. Soho legend has it that France kept what amounted to a small armoury under the counter, to deal with any differences of opinion in the cafe. It is not impossible that France could obtain guns. Back in those days, ex-Service firearms were plentiful, cheap and fairly easy to obtain illegally. I've often wondered if, per his request, France obtained a gun for JH. And after the A6 crime, JH panicked, and forced France to take back the gun - as HS rightly asks, why didn't he get rid of it in The Thames, or toss it into a river or a pool on his drive back from Deadman's Hill? If he did return it to the unwilling and now doubtless scared stiff France, then did France recall what JH had told him about the back seat of buses, and plant it there? It just seems an amazing coincidence that JH should mention this hiding-place to France, and then lo and behold! that's where the gun pops up!

Nick, if JH was the scruffy passenger that Pamela Patt said she saw on her bus at 6.10am, would that have given him time to drive (erratically) from Deadman's Hill? Also, Valerie described JH as being immaculately dressed when he got into the car.

Graham

[moste]

John Kerr stated that he was dropped off at the census point at 5.40am - very likely no more than 2 hours after Valerie was shot, but the precise time this happened is not known. She was discovered at about 6.30am by Sidney Burton, a farm-hand walking along the A6 on his way to work. He notified Kerr. Yes, I concede that Kerr couldn't have heard the shots, but I understand that he replaced another census-taker who most certainly was at his post at the time of the shootings. Blowed if I can remember his name, but I'm sure it's been published somewhere.

As far as is known, contrary to suggestions made in the past, there is no evidence at all that Alphon and Hanratty consciously knew each other prior to the crime.

Graham

One of the two census takers was a man called Black I believe,they had been reassigned, if you remember to a location a mile or so further south. So there was nobody stationed at the RAC booth, when Kerr arrived. The nearest buildings were the four ex farm workers cottages about five hundred yards to the north. From hearing the demo's on YouTube of that particular weapon being fired I can't see anyone hearing it from that location . Incidentally though , I don't think people were used to hearing weapons being discharged in any areas of Englands countryside at between 3 and 4 am.lol.

[cobalt]

The driving ability of the killer has always been one of the weaker planks in the prosecution case. We don’t know how many cars Hanratty stole in his short life, but surely enough to familiarise himself with the basics of gears and clutch. He may well have been a poor driver- his impulsive nature and disregard for others supports that line of argument- but there is a marked difference between being poor at something and being clueless. The reluctance of the killer to take control of events by commandeering the car earlier in the evening suggests to me a person who was not confident about driving the vehicle.

SH, one frustrating feature of the A6 Case is the duality of evidence we have available. For example, the notorious Nudds stated the room found with cartridge cases was occupied by Ryan (Hanratty), then later decided it was in fact occupied by Alphon before reverting to his original story. By the way, several characters in this story operate under dual names as well. Valerie Storie originally picked out an innocent man on the first ID parade before fixing upon Hanratty the second time round. Not to be outdone, Hanratty originally came up with an alibi that he was in Liverpool, before deciding he had instead been in Rhyl. Even the original descriptions of the killer offered up immediately after the crime seem to have indicated different hair and eye colours. Valerie Storie also supplied two accounts of how they met the killer, whilst the car itself was dumped in the early morning, or then again perhaps the early evening. I wish you the best of Briti

Police corruption? No more than the normal trimming of evidence so far as I can make out, which was standard for the time. Political dimension? I think our security services employ more reliable employees than the killer, even if Gregsten had stumbled on some dodgy scientific data concerning a multinational company’s tyres or braking system. Besides, in the UK we normally deal with potential whistle blowers by promoting them, not executing them in lay bys.


Yet this is a murder which seems to stand alone in the annals of British murder. There is no convincing explanation for the killer being in a cornfield, deciding not to drive away himself but to stay in the car for a number of hours, not to be driven near his home but to wander aimlessly across the edge of London, then deciding he wants to go to sleep. After this, the prosecution version of events is that he kills Gregsten in a moment of panic, but applies a second shot nonetheless. The sexual assault on Ms. Storie and the eventual murder attempt might make sense to a psychiatrist. None of the killer’s actions from his appearance in the cornfield seem to make much sense despite attempts to shoehorn Hanratty, a man of limited intelligence and morality no doubt but sharp enough in his instincts, into the frame. A random, motiveless murder where culprit and victims met by chance? Just about possible, but there has not been one like it in the UK since so far as I can recall. More likely we have a shortage of information and cannot see the full picture.

[Graham]

Incidentally though , I don't think people were used to hearing weapons being discharged in any areas of Englands countryside at between 3 and 4 am.lol.

Come and live where I do and you'd soon change your tune. Lol.

[Herlock Sholmes]

JH actually agreed that he'd told Charles France that he used the back seat of buses to get rid of unwanted loot. For years, I have harboured the suspicion that it was France who got him the gun in the first place. It's probably now forgotten that France was 'manager' of The Harmony Cafe in Archer Street, Soho, on the surface a jazz venue, but the meeting-place of all manner of underworld undesirables. Soho legend has it that France kept what amounted to a small armoury under the counter, to deal with any differences of opinion in the cafe. It is not impossible that France could obtain guns. Back in those days, ex-Service firearms were plentiful, cheap and fairly easy to obtain illegally. I've often wondered if, per his request, France obtained a gun for JH. And after the A6 crime, JH panicked, and forced France to take back the gun - as HS rightly asks, why didn't he get rid of it in The Thames, or toss it into a river or a pool on his drive back from Deadman's Hill? If he did return it to the unwilling and now doubtless scared stiff France, then did France recall what JH had told him about the back seat of buses, and plant it there? It just seems an amazing coincidence that JH should mention this hiding-place to France, and then lo and behold! that's where the gun pops up!

Nick, if JH was the scruffy passenger that Pamela Patt said she saw on her bus at 6.10am, would that have given him time to drive (erratically) from Deadman's Hill? Also, Valerie described JH as being immaculately dressed when he got into the car.

Graham

If France did provide the gun might this not go some way toward an explanation for his apparent remorse and subsequent suicide? It did seem to me a rather strange suggestion that France’s feelings of guilt came from the fact that he’d welcomed Hanratty into his family. After all Hanratty had done his family no harm.

[Graham]

If France did provide the gun might this not go some way toward an explanation for his apparent remorse and subsequent suicide? It did seem to me a rather strange suggestion that France’s feelings of guilt came from the fact that he’d welcomed Hanratty into his family. After all Hanratty had done his family no harm.

France left a number of notes, all of which except one the police took and were never released. This one note was published. Most certainly, Hanratty never did his family any harm, and Hanratty had a (very) brief affair with his daughter, but I can't see this as a reason for her father's suicide. It seems that Hanratty looked up to Charles France as a kind of father-figure mentor. As with other aspects of this Case, I believe there was more to Charles France's role than meets the eye. It is likely that we'll now never know.

Graham

[moste]

Come and live where I do and you'd soon change your tune. Lol.

Poachers?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Well I’ve just finished reading Woffinden (my first book on the case.)

Firstly, I can now see why the fascination with the case.

Secondly, I accept that my opinion carries no weight after reading one book by someone who passionately believed in Hanratty’s innocence.

As anyone who has discussed the Wallace case with me you will know how reticent I am about giving my opinion

I have to say that, at the very least, I wouldn’t have sent Hanratty to the gallows on what I know so far. I’m not in favour of capitol punishment anyway but still. To me there are easily enough doubts, at this point, to say that Hanratty might well have been innocent. Of course there’s the DNA evidence which I haven’t taken into consideration and know nothing about. Valerie Storie’s identification is problematical in that the circumstances were so difficult. She later claimed to be absolutely certain and yet she took 20 minutes to make up her mind at an identity parade. The Wales evidence throws in at least the possibility that Hanratty couldn’t have been at Deadman’s Hill. The poor disposal of the gun seems really strange to me. We know that Hanratty wasn’t the sharpest tool to say the least but he would surely have had a level of criminal cunning or nouse which would have told him to make a better job of dumping the gun?

Im certainly open to having my mind changed on this. It’s certainly a minefield. We have a pathelogical liar in Nudds. The dodgy France. Alphon does a great impression of a loony. You have pretty much a crusade claiming Hanratty innocent and DNA (which I haven’t read about yet) saying he was guilty. We know that killers can give a good impression of themselves and this might, at least partially, explain why I think at the moment that Hanratty could have been innocent. He was a career crook but the impression is that he wasn’t a ‘nasty piece of work.’

So after one book, and probably unsurprisingly considering which book I read, I slightly favour an innocent Hanratty but with no great level of certainty. Unlike the Wallace case I’m pretty much on the fence with a lean toward innocent.

Is Alphon easily dismissed these days?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Poachers?

I was going to say highwaymen.....sorry Graham

[moste]

The original pair of traffic counters were pulled off from the 10 pm to 6 am shift from that location , not two hundred yards from the murder scene! and relocated as I said .Well,Well, Well. WTF is going on there?
There is sh** loads of stuff akin to this controversy marbled through this case,which to the non gullible points away from Hanratty as the culprit.

[cobalt]

Alphon disappeared off the radar somewhat during the 2002 appeal, when Hanratty’s defence team made a legal decision not to advance any evidence against him as the possible killer.

Alphon’s alibi was, from memory, provided by a combination of his mother and by Nudds.

Hanratty spent a great deal of time claiming not to be the A6 murderer and was not generally believed. Alphon spent considerable time suggesting that he was the A6 murderer but was not generally believed either.

[Alfie]

Nick, if JH was the scruffy passenger that Pamela Patt said she saw on her bus at 6.10am, would that have given him time to drive (erratically) from Deadman's Hill? Also, Valerie described JH as being immaculately dressed when he got into the car.Graham

The gunman drove away from Deadman's Hill on the Wednesday morning, the gun was found on Thursday evening, so was presumably hidden on Patt's bus on the Thursday morning. Depending on where he slept on Wednesday night, JH might have been looking a little less immaculate than he did when holding up Valerie and Gregsten.

[Alfie]

Valerie Storie's identification is problematical in that the circumstances were so difficult. She later claimed to be absolutely certain and yet she took 20 minutes to make up her mind at an identity parade.

Cross examined at the trial, Valerie said she'd made up her mind after five minutes but wanted to be sure. Writing for a magazine afterwards, she said she deliberately prolonged the process because she wanted to make Hanratty suffer as she and Gregsten had.