A6 Rebooted

[moste]

The idea of Hanratty strolling around with a gun, getting the ‘feel’ of his new power, does hold more water, for me at least, than the idea that he went out to burgle houses all tooled up and chanced upon Gregsten and Ms. Storie.

For all that there are still a few problems. The main one is why it was necessary to catch a train to Taplow to get the feel of his weapon. He could have done this more easily in the London areas he knew much better and saved on the train ticket. If the cartridge shell evidence from the hotel is to be believed then Hanratty must have practised already with his weapon, so he’d already had at least one opportunity to test his powers.

Another one is that his main reason for acquiring a gun was surely practical: to threaten people or businesses in order to obtain quick cash. There may well have been a psychological element as well- many young men might get a kick from handling a lethal weapon- but Hanratty was a professional thief more than he was some psychotic basket case. Any violent instincts would have been expected to surface in some form by his late if not mid teens, gun or no gun.

The final one is the sheer amount of time Hanratty spent in the car exercising his new found power. From memory he was allegedly in the vehicle with the couple for around six hours, by which time whatever dark thrill he was experiencing through holding a couple hostage must have been wearing a bit thin. At any point in the proceedings he could have turfed the couple out of the car and driven back to London to bask in his new found status as a stick- up man. I can’t see why he was supposed to be confused, uncertain, baffled by the situation he had put himself in: just tell them to get out at some quiet spot and then drive off.

Absolutely , people do talk some bloody rubbish on here.
I mean to say ,take this so called knee jerk reaction to Gregsten supposedly frightening Hanratty,
according to Storie. I thought we'd put this one to bed. The particular weapon involved , does not lend itself to being fired twice in rapid succession by accident, I did the research. Whatever the attack on Storie was all about is up for debate , but Gregsten was nailed by someone who knew what he was doing .
Welcome to the A 6 Thread H. S. It's absolutely absorbing , fascinating , and much more complex than the Wallace thing I think. But at the end of the day, like the Wallace case , the debate tends to go round in circles. If you read the books, 'for and against' Hanratty being the killer, hopefully you'll draw your own conclusions, and perhaps share them with us . I do share your beliefs in Wallace being guilty of killing his wife , but am even more convinced of Hanratty's innocence.

[moste]

The first description issued by police - just hours after Valerie was found - was of a man with "dark brown" hair. This could only have come from her. So it seems more likely to me at least that Kerr's hearing or recollection was at fault. He did get Valerie's name wrong initially after all, mistakenly thinking it was Mary.

But to be fair to Kerr. He did go back to Storie to double check on her name , in order to be sure he wasn't making any mistakes.
This is the kind of thing that Is so annoying. Kerr's involvement in the case and all the aspects of him being a good witness ,were exemplary .
Graham's two bits about the Morris motor car is basically Tommy rot, I can't speak for the example of the vehicle he drove/owned in particular, but the Morris Minor was reputed to be one of the easiest cars on the road to drive ( I learned to drive in one in '64)

[moste]

Curiouser and curiouser.

Has there been any suggestions of police corruption or dishonesty in this case?

Its rather strange that not only did Kerr’s written description disappear but the police claimed not to be able to find an officer who had received the piece of paper. This implies of course that Kerr was mistaken or lying. Surely it’s unlikely that he could have been mistaken on this and what reason would he have to lie? Could his description have been seen as ‘inconvenient?’

Kerr made the error of not noting the officers number when he gave over the information he had jotted down from Stories sequence of events.
I would suggest people believing Hanratty to be innocent , also believe this case stunk to high heaven of police corruption.

[Graham]

Graham's two bits about the Morris motor car is basically Tommy rot, I can't speak for the example of the vehicle he drove/owned in particular, but the Morris Minor was reputed to be one of the easiest cars on the road to drive ( I learned to drive in one in '64)

Hmm, I have the distinct impression you don't quite agree with what I said here. Personally, I couldn't care less if you learned to drive on one last week, but the Minor I bought in 1967 was a 1952 side-valve 947cc model and just about all-round knackered. As in 15 years old, etc., etc. And Gregsten's wasn't exactly fresh off the production-line. Minors may well have been easy to drive, but they also conked out fairly easily too. And anyone driving one for the first time after murdering a man and raping and shooting w woman may have been just a little on the nervous side when it came to figuring out the gears and the sharp clutch. Have a think about it.

I see the thread appears to be returning to its former pointless verbal aggression, rather than civilised discussion.

Graham

[Alfie]

I've noticed that it's generally taken for granted on this forum that the revolver used by Gregsten's killer was a sizeable weapon that the gunman would have had difficulty concealing both before and after the murder - especially as he does not seem to have been carrying any sort of bag or hold-all in which to hide it.

Then I came across this report of Valerie's testimony at trial in the Evening Times: "There was a man standing there ... Mike started to wind down the window. When it was about halfway down a gun was suddenly thrust through it, pointing at Mike and myself. It was a pistol or revolver - a small one."

Elsewhere I've seen the dimensions of a .38 pistol of the type used given as 10.25 inches long and weighing 1.7 pounds.

That does seem like quite a small weapon to me - one that could quite easily be concealed beneath a double-breasted suit jacket by tucking it into the gunman's waistband. Any weapons boffins out there who could confirm this?

[Graham]

Hi Alfie,

First I've heard of Valerie describing the gun as 'small'.

Graham

[Alfie]

Hi Alfie,

First I've heard of Valerie describing the gun as 'small'.

Graham

Hi Graham - it's a direct quote, taken from the Glasgow Evening Times, January 23rd 1962, pp. 10-11.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2mus-XyGPC0C&dat=19620123&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

[NickB]

Size of gun shown here:

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/crime-england-the-a6-murder-the-gun-is-a-black-six-news-photo/78966805

[Spitfire]

I mean to say ,take this so called knee jerk reaction to Gregsten supposedly frightening Hanratty,
according to Storie. I thought we'd put this one to bed. The particular weapon involved , does not lend itself to being fired twice in rapid succession by accident, I did the research. Whatever the attack on Storie was all about is up for debate , but Gregsten was nailed by someone who knew what he was doing .

Someone who knew what they were doing would have:-

1. Ordered Gregsten out of the car and then shot him. To shoot someone sitting in the driving seat of the car in which the killer would need to make good his escape would be madness even if the killer had taken the unlikely precaution of bringing along a plastic boiler suit with rubber buttons.

2. Familiarised himself with the workings of a Morris Minor and ensured that he was sufficiently competent to drive the same.

3. Killed Valerie Storie and made sure she had died before leaving the scene. In fact he botched this despite the number of rounds fired at Miss Storie.

The murder-rape-attempted murder was the work of an incompetent nutter, such as Jim Hanratty whose life of crime was marked by carelessness.

[Graham]

Hi Graham - it's a direct quote, taken from the Glasgow Evening Times, January 23rd 1962, pp. 10-11.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2mus-XyGPC0C&dat=19620123&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

Hi Alfie,

the repro on my computer isn't too good, but I still don't see a reference to the gun being described as 'small' by Valerie.

Graham

[gallicrow]

the repro on my computer isn't too good, but I still don't see a reference to the gun being described as 'small' by Valerie.

It's on the continuation to the story on page 10:


However later on she indicates that it was "about six to eight inches" long:


I shall resist making a smutty joke.

[Graham]

It's on the continuation to the story on page 10:


However later on she indicates that it was "about six to eight inches" long:


I shall resist making a smutty joke.

Missed it - didn't realise there was more on Page 10.

I shall resist making a smutty joke.

Oooh, you are awful....!

Graham

[moste]

Size of gun shown here:

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail...photo/78966805

Hi Nick. Then for posters who are really interested in understanding the size and operation of the.38 Mk.2 Enfield 1940s service revolver (double action) there's 'youtube'

[moste]

Hmm, I have the distinct impression you don't quite agree with what I said here. Personally, I couldn't care less if you learned to drive on one last week, but the Minor I bought in 1967 was a 1952 side-valve 947cc model and just about all-round knackered. As in 15 years old, etc., etc. And Gregsten's wasn't exactly fresh off the production-line. Minors may well have been easy to drive, but they also conked out fairly easily too. And anyone driving one for the first time after murdering a man and raping and shooting w woman may have been just a little on the nervous side when it came to figuring out the gears and the sharp clutch. Have a think about it.

I see the thread appears to be returning to its former pointless verbal aggression, rather than civilised discussion.

Graham

Ok , delete Tommy rot. But your having had a poor experience with that particular Morris model, even though a self professed overseer of the development of the Morris engine ,I don't see how them having a reputation for 'conking out' has any bearing on anything, Unless you are alluding to the engine stalling ( probably due to the choke being left pulled out too long) and Storie having to restart and go over the gears operation again! If this scenario was factual, she wasn't talking to Jim, Sorry, No chance.

I have had a think about it . And I think you maybe confusing Hanratty's driving abilities with those of Alphons.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Alfie,

First I've heard of Valerie describing the gun as 'small'.

Graham

Women often describe things as small when they’re not really.