A6 Rebooted

[ansonman]

‘What would she likely say’
It is a tricky question, and almost impossible to place yourself in her situation such as it was. She must have been ,though suffering little pain, very uncertain as to whether she was going to survive or not. Yet surely reassured and tremendously relieved that she was finally discovered . The phrase “we picked a man up near Slough” is unfathomable, in the context of everything else that happened to her. Highjacked, carjacked, attacked, as you say Cobalt ,none of which are likely. How about ‘ A man got in the car with a gun’ ?

Or even "a man with a gun forced his way into our car".

Unfathomable is absolutely the word.

Ansonman

[propatria27]

Return to the forum

Hello everyone. I have not posted since April 2015, some of you may recall me, I certainly notice some familiar names still around. I've been re-reading Foot and Woffinden and doing some online research and I have a few comments I'd like to add to the mix:

1. Sex before the holdup - Woffinden 1997 hardback edition, page 19 states "He picked up the family laundry from the launderette, and was waiting for Valerie when she finished work. They stopped in Cippenham, where she lived. Mike had a haircut, and then they went to her house. She made tea. They ate it and washed up. It was about 7:45 when they arrived at the Old Station Inn".
Is it possible they had sex at her home? There is no mention of her parents and, I know if we had a visitor, my wife would prepare the food and we would clear up, not expect a guest to do it. Just a thought.

2. Alphon's height. The very first description of the gunman's height was 5' 6" and I don't believe that has varied at all. But according to Acott's 12 points, Alphon was 5' 9" tall and I think I saw on a documentary that he might have been an inch taller than that. That's not a mistake people would make, especially as VS said to Kerr, "He had big staring eyes, fairish brown hair, slightly taller than I am, and I am 5 feet 3 and a half inches". (Woffinden 1997, page 11).

3. Edward Blackhall's identification of the MM. I noticed a lot of discussion about the various sightings of the MM on the forum a while ago, but I think the most important sighting was Blackhall's because he was so precise in the detail he gave, "He was taken to New Scotland Yard, and was easily able to identify the car. He had noticed the three strips of red tape on the back bumper, as well as a torn green label on the back window" (Ibid page 38).

I've got some other points, but I'll make another post, or two to cover them.

Pete

[propatria27]

Return to the forum - 2

4. A while ago, One Round was asking about policing in Redbridge at the time of the incident. I lived in Redbridge from 1966 to 1977 and my parents continued to live there until the mid 80's. I also went to a local grammar school and rode past Avondale Crescent every school day on my bike. Additonally, for a couple of years I did a paper round which included Avondale Crescent. I also know a number of policemen from Ilford and Barkingside police stations through playing cricket with them or due to my time as an RAF Policeman (25 years). Having said all that, I am confident that there was no beat bobby covering that area, it was all patrol cars or vans. The area was in the juristriction of Barkingside police station but the district HQ was Ilford police station, neither of which are very close to Avondale Crescent. Hope that helps.

5. If the car was abandoned around 7:15 am on the 23rd August, it would have been close to rush hour, and I can confirm that Redbridge station would have been extremely busy, mostly with pedestrians as there was no station car park at that time. It would have been a good time to disappear into the crowd. If the alternative time is considered (6:45 pm or a bit earlier), then, that was tea time in that part of the world. Many men, my dad included, would get home around 6pm and have their tea and the children would have been called in too. Therefore, the local roads would have been fairly quiet, especially of pedestrians. Alternatively, it would have been a bad time to catch a tube train as most people would be travelling from London and a lone passenger might have stood out.

6. Why abandon the car at Redbridge? If Skillett and Blackhall are correct, the driver of the MM went past two other tube stations, Newbury Park and Gants Hill, before stopping at Redbridge - why? I believe that he didn't stop at Newbury Park because parking there was difficult, due to it being (and still is) also a bus station and is adjacent to King George's Hospital - it wasn't easy to park nearby until they built the station car park many years later. Gants Hill tube station is underneath the roundabout with multiple tunnel entrances, but no parking at all. Therefore, the first place he could have parked close to a tube station was Redbridge, whether he knew that or not, is another matter, but I detect some local knowledge there.

7. RAF records. Both Gregsten and Michael Clark served in the RAF, and I know from personal experience and visits, that the RAF have a central library of all ex-servicemen, which includes their blood groups and a photograph. I will attempt to speak to any of my colleagues still serving to see what the chances are of having a look at, or getting, those records.

Pete

[NickB]

Some interesting points Pete.

On that last issue, whilst some mysteries of the case are unlikely ever to be solved I have always thought that some serious research could find out more information about Michael Clark - and in particular his eye colour.

I am surprised that Woffinden's research did not uncover a photo of him. Or perhaps it did!

[Alfie]

Some interesting points Pete.

On that last issue, whilst some mysteries of the case are unlikely ever to be solved I have always thought that some serious research could find out more information about Michael Clark - and in particular his eye colour.

I am surprised that Woffinden's research did not uncover a photo of him. Or perhaps it did!

Clark was an airman at Northwood. His particulars, probably a photo also, would have been on file somewhere. Surprises me that Sherrard's team didn't track this down - or, again, perhaps they did.

Edit: Just read Propatria's post above, which makes the same point.

While I'm here: Woffinden on p.323 writes about the News of the World publishing Hanratty's last letters "one Sunday morning". Anyone know when? I assume they'd have been the letters sent to his family. Struggling to think why they'd have released them if it wasn't for the money?

[Alfie]

With regard to Propatria's point 1 above, the BBC on Aug 23 reported: "Miss Storie's mother, Mrs John Storie, said: 'Michael came here last night and had tea with Valerie. They then left at about 7.30pm in a grey Morris car which I understood belonged to Mike's mother. They took with them maps and other things to organise a car rally being held at their office this weekend.'"

If she didn't get this information from Valerie then it would suggest that she was at home at the time.

[moste]

1. Sex before the holdup - Woffinden 1997 hardback edition, page 19 states "He picked up the family laundry from the launderette, and was waiting for Valerie when she finished work. They stopped in Cippenham, where she lived. Mike had a haircut, and then they went to her house. She made tea. They ate it and washed up. It was about 7:45 when they arrived at the Old Station Inn".
Is it possible they had sex at her home? There is no mention of her parents and, I know if we had a visitor, my wife would prepare the food and we would clear up, not expect a guest to do it. Just a thought.
Hi Pete.
Good point. I am of the opinion that Valerie’s parents knew less of Valerie’s involvement with the married man with two children ,than we are lead to believe.
This was 1961 remember.South Huntercombe road passed through a farming area about six minutes walk from Valerie’s home on Anthony way, a council house estate. A motor cyclist gave a very keenly observed discription of a M.M parked very close to a monkey path which ran between the two locations on the night of the so called abduction. Two thoughts that raise good questions : 1 ,Was this a regular drop off spot ,whereby Valerie could arrive home without questions being asked? and 2, perhaps this scenario was supposed to take place, but because Mike was heading off to meet with someone later,for reasons only known to themselves ,could Valerie have insisted on going with him ?
I myself don’t buy into the corn field yarn, I don’t believe the line” my parents knew about my affair with Mike,because someone snitched” (at the time had the Stories become aware of their daughters indiscretions they would almost certainly have been mortified with guilt and embarrassment)as with most decent parents they would want to protect their daughters dignity and good name at all costs, So yes I can see the pair being alone at the house that fateful night.

[moste]

Quote: While I'm here: Woffinden on p.323 writes about the News of the World publishing Hanratty's last letters "one Sunday morning". Anyone know when? I assume they'd have been the letters sent to his family. Struggling to think why they'd have released them if it wasn't for the money?


I'm thinking ,out of pure passion from wanting the world to know that their son was totally innocent. Is this an insinuation that Mr. and Mrs. Hanratty were seeking to make money from their sons death?
Obversely ,I would like to invite anyone that is interested to read Valerie Stories Story on the entire case as she saw it ,paid for by a newspaper , and very colourfully written I might add. Not 4 years after the hanging of an innocent man ,but 4 months (Ghoulish?) Its on here somewhere under a Sherlock Houses post.

[Spitfire]

Obituary of Cyril Lewis Hawser who rumbled Hanratty’s alibi.

[cobalt]

Obituary of Cyril Lewis Hawser who rumbled Hanratty’s alibi

The only thing rumbling was Hawser's belly. He did not rumble Hanratty's alibi, he simply ignored it.

Hawser was a company boy. Status quo before justice sort of thing. There's money it for sure.

[Spitfire]

Obituary of Cyril Lewis Hawser who rumbled Hanratty’s alibi

The only thing rumbling was Hawser's belly. He did not rumble Hanratty's alibi, he simply ignored it.

Hawser was a company boy. Status quo before justice sort of thing. There's money it for sure.

Your criticism of him might have more force if you had read his report.

[Sherlock Houses]

Obituary of Cyril Lewis Hawser who rumbled Hanratty’s alibi

The only thing rumbling was Hawser's belly. He did not rumble Hanratty's alibi, he simply ignored it.

Hawser was a company boy. Status quo before justice sort of thing. There's money it for sure.

Quite so. I've read Silly Loose Horse's 1975 report and it's a shamefully lopsided and selective whitewash of a report. Keeping it within 'the establishment' family he obviously was given an agenda and didn't wish to disappoint 'the old school tie brigade' to whom truth is often a stranger.

No doubt an admirer of the infamous Basil Acon-man and Kenneth Oxfraud.

[Spitfire]

Have just received Justice's book 'Murder vs. Murder' via Amazon and reading it found it included (p.11) a letter from Hanratty in Bedford Prison to his Mother, dated March 7, that Foot and Woffinden omitted.

The interesting bit reads ...

"... I wanted to write to you straight away and inform you and tell you about the good news I have just received, it could not have come at a better time.

I will not keep you in suspense any long, it is about a letter which I received at the same time as yours, it came from a man who states that he was absolutely sure, that he was the man whom I sat next to on the train to Liverpool on the 22nd August, that is the man who I described with the gold cuff links.

You know the importance of this and it has made me feel most confident now regarding my appeal ..."

Sensational if true ... but as no further mention was made of this letter-writer, I can only assume it was a false alarm.

Anyone have any info on who it was that caused Hanratty's hopes to soar? Or was the letter simply a cruel hoax?

Hi Alfie, just noticed this at paragraph 293 of Mr Hawser's report:

293. Mr. S. P. Terry.—He wrote to Mr. Hanratty on 5th March 1962
suggesting in the vaguest possible terms that he had been on the train with
him.

Which could have been the letter referred to by Hanratty. There is also this at paragraph 294:

294. Mr. Gerald Moffatt.—He made a statement on 7th March 1962 claimingthat he noticed Mr. Hanratty in a compartment when he was passing that compartment on the train to Liverpool which left Euston about midday on
22nd August 1961. The statements ofMr. Da Costa, Mr. Terry and Mr. Moffatt
were sent to the Home Secretary in March 1962

[Alfie]

Hi Alfie, just noticed this at paragraph 293 of Mr Hawser's report:

293. Mr. S. P. Terry.—He wrote to Mr. Hanratty on 5th March 1962
suggesting in the vaguest possible terms that he had been on the train with
him.

Which could have been the letter referred to by Hanratty. There is also this at paragraph 294:

294. Mr. Gerald Moffatt.—He made a statement on 7th March 1962 claimingthat he noticed Mr. Hanratty in a compartment when he was passing that compartment on the train to Liverpool which left Euston about midday on
22nd August 1961. The statements ofMr. Da Costa, Mr. Terry and Mr. Moffatt
were sent to the Home Secretary in March 1962

Thanks Spitfire. The dates would seem to coincide and strongly suggest Terry's was the letter Hanratty was writing about.

Moffatt's statement is a new one to me. Odd that Foot and Woffinden make mention of da Costa's supposed sighting, but not the other two.

[Spitfire]

Footie and Woofie both realised that a man with the name S P Terry would be unlikely to have gold cufflinks with the initial "E".