A6 Rebooted

[Graham]

Nice one, Spitfire, but as this all happened in 1961, perhaps you should have included:

President Kennedy Nikita Khrushchev J Edgar Hoover Kim Philby Private Eye Mrs Mills Elvis Presley Harold Macmillan Peter Sellers Malcolm Muggeridge Sooty

Just try proving that none of these were involved.....

Graham

[Graham]

The armchair psychology that says Hanratty wanted to achieve power with a gun is probably best left in the armchair. Hanratty was a thief. Not a robber. A thief. He wanted money, not power.

Acott advised Hanratty that he had been to see Donald Slack, who told him that Hanratty had visited him and discussed the possibility of obtaining a gun. Hanratty himself confirmed in an interview with Kleinmann that he had been to see Donald Slack, whom he had known for some time, about obtaining a gun. He told Kleinmann that Slack asked him why he needed a gun, and he replied that 'screwing was all played out. If you want to get rich these days you've got to have a shooter and go after cash'.

Of course, he later denied that his conversation with Slack was nothing but bravado, and that he could have got a gun at any time from The Rehearsal Club. So why, then, did he go and ask Slack about a gun? As might be expected, Slack later denied that he had ever discussed guns with Hanratty, but he would, wouldn't he?

So are you suggesting that Hanratty just wanted a gun so he could discuss with his planned victims the finer points of firearms manufacture and use? He wanted a gun for the same reason any other villain ever wanted one: to scare the **** out of his victims.

Graham

[NickB]

Corroboration of him wanting to get a gun is provided by Lanigan, who said he had discussed with Hanratty getting guns to do a hold up in Wembley.

Another possible conspiracy partner is the IRA, given the Republican connections with the Scotland Road area.

[cobalt]

Irony requires wit and leaves the recipient with a rueful smile on his lips; sarcasm is the weapon of the second rate schoolmaster trying to retain some authority.

As Moste has pointed out, a number of people on this site have changed their opinion since the DNA evidence was presented, evidence which they regard as definitive. There is nothing wrong with changing your mind in light of new evidence, the problem lies in expecting everyone else to follow suit. If Hanratty’s guilt is as secure as they believe, why do they wish to avoid serious debate? Do they fear being on the wrong side of the argument a second time?

NickB's sarcastic allusion to the IRA in Scotland Road was rather ill-chosen since it is a matter of legal record that at least four groups of innocent persons were convicted for IRA bombings in the 1970s. In each case the police conspired against them to submit false evidence. Even when doubts were raised about these convictions, a second conspiracy took place within the legal establishment to conceal the truth until this was no longer sustainable. A double conspiracy. In the case of the Guildford Four it’s not necessary to name check the Rosenbergs, Marlon Brando or Ernie Marples for we know the name of the man involved: Attorney General Sir Michael Havers who had led for the prosecution at their trial, so no conflict of interest there then when he dismissed the appeal. Two cheers for our independent judiciary.

All of the victims were as insignificant as James Hanratty until they stood in the dock. In their case these nonentities, some middle-aged labourers, others junkies, were presented to the jury as ruthless members of Europe’s most dangerous terrorist group. In Hanratty’s case a housebreaker and car thief was presented to the jury as a deranged killer and rapist.
For me this remains the most likely conspiracy in the A6 Case, the type that wrongfully hanged George Kelly, Timothy Evans, Mattan and would have done the same to Stefan Kiszko had Home Secretary David Waddington had his way.

Detective Chief Superintendent Roger Matthews was another excitable conspiracy theorist, who took it one stage further than the conventional police ‘fit up.’ He is reported as believing there were probably three guilty parties involved in the A6 Case, none of whom was Hanratty, who were never brought to justice. His report has never been published and is now either played down by those convinced of Hanratty’s guilty or considered obsolete. Those in power have decided the public should not to see his report, so we are to trust their better judgment and anyone suggesting Matthews’ evidence might undermine the later DNA results can therefore be dubbed a conspiracist.

So Moste, we have some history and a senior detective on our side. I can’t really buy into your political conspiracy for reasons I’ve earlier outlined but nor would I completely discount it either. I have yet to discover exactly what Michael Gregsten was working on at the RRL; does the term ‘research physicist’ equate to minor civil servant? I’m not sure, but I recall weapons inspector David Kelly being described as a ‘middle-ranking civil servant’ by the MOD in the immediate aftermath of his death. He was a lot more than that, it transpired. Ditto William Ewer the umbrella salesman and perhaps Mr. Alphon senior, the records clerk at Scotland Yard. Remember too that, if one fine day, clear evidence came to light supporting a political conspiracy in the A6 Case it would not be accepted by those who maintain that the Birmingham Six were freed on a technicality, that the police at Orgreave charged pickets after being stoned, that the soldiers in Derry 1972 were shot at by Martin McGuiness and that Liverpool supporters broke down a gate at Hillsborough. The Parsons Tendency will always be with us, Parsons being the character in Orwell’s 1984 who declares: ‘Of course I’m guilty! Do you think The Party would arrest an innocent man?

[Spitfire]

Corroboration of him wanting to get a gun is provided by Lanigan, who said he had discussed with Hanratty getting guns to do a hold up in Wembley.

Another possible conspiracy partner is the IRA, given the Republican connections with the Scotland Road area.

I believe the songstress Priscilla White, who suspiciously changed her name to Cilla Black, was also resident in the Scottie Road area and would have been able to shed considerable light on the A6 Murder if only she had been asked, which she does not seem to have been.

I believe that Black, or White if you prefer, had been married to the former England and Warwickshire quick bowler, Bob Willis, who also does not seem to have been interviewed by either Acott or Oxford.

Cilla was great chums with a popular music combo going under the style of "The Beatles". If you believe Wikipedia (which I don't ) then the Beatles were performing in Liverpool during the month of August 1961. Yet they do not seem to have had an engagement for 22nd August 1961. As they were later to sing in the little ditty Penny Lane, "Very strange."

So did Acott and/or Oxford question the Fab Three (the Fab Four minus Ringo who did not join the combo until 1962) and Stu Sutcliffe and Pete Best about their involvement in the A6 job?

Apropos the Stefan Kiszko case, it was my understanding that David Waddington was Kiszko's defence counsel and therefore on his side. A chap called Roy Jenkins (Welsh by birth and considering the A6 Murder's historic connections with the Principality, a person who should have been questioned by Acott and Oxford) was the Home Secretary when Kiszko was convicted.

[Sherlock Houses]

[quote]#2819
Old 12-24-2008, 02:13 PM
blue moon blue moon is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6
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thank you for your reply, but i would like to correct you in saying that richard was born in march 1962 and the possibility of them having sexual intercourse before the time stated by you at the fun fair is high indeed. carol france was also a trainee hairdresser at the time and was the one who dyed hanratty's hair, thanks for the reply however and i would like to hear from you soon.[quote/]

I dont know if you still look in on this forum blue moon but you contributed some intriguing posts almost a decade ago and it seems clear that you knew the France family quite well. Its a real pity that you didnt contribute any further posts. Just to set the record straight and clear up any lingering suspicions that James Hanratty was the father of Caroles son Richard William Nutzlader, I can definitely state that he was not the father. Richard was born not in March 1962 as you mistakenly thought, but a year later, on March 4th 1963, exactly 11 months after the state murder of Hanratty.

[Sherlock Houses]

Quite so Ansonman.

Mrs Margaret Walker was one of these "miracles". A very upstanding and well respected Rhyl citizen she was able to pinpoint the date she encountered a young man outside her home seeking B&B accommodation for 2 nights. Mrs Walker said the man looked very much like James Hanratty, whose photo had been published for the very first time in the Sunday papers of February 18th 1962, the day after the trial ended.
The date of this encounter she was able to establish firmly as Tuesday, August 22nd 1961. The reason for her certainty was that it happened the Tuesday before a very noteworthy family event took place. That family event was the eviction of her son on Friday August 25th.

The following 6 important points are what make Mrs Walker's evidence so powerfully persuasive [unless of course you happen to be a diehard cynic].............

1] The man was about 24-27 years old. Hanratty was 24 at the time.
2] The man asked for accommodation for 2 nights. Hanratty stated that he stayed 2 nights in Rhyl at the relevant time.
3] The man's hair was dark and very eye-catching as it was streaky or tacky in places. This would describe how Hanratty's hair must have looked a couple of weeks after having had it dyed dark by Carole France. The dye would have been in the process of fading and the natural auburn colour beginning to show, hence the noticeable streakiness.
4] The man was not casually dressed, he wore a suit, a dark suit. Hanratty was wearing the dark grey Hepworth suit that week.
5] Mrs Walker's Alsatian dog was at her side by her front gate when the young man approached her. Hanratty's father recalled his son telling him of 'a large dog' accompanying one of the Rhyl women he had asked for accommodation.
6] Mrs Walker stated that this young man was willing to sleep anywhere "on a settee or anything", it didn't bother him where. This tallies perfectly with Hanratty's sleeping arrangements when staying at the Frances or at Louise Anderson's.

Hi me,

In addition to these 6 important points when Mrs Walker met with James Hanratty senior in 1967 her belief that it was James Hanratty who she saw on August 22nd 1961 was reinforced......."The moment I saw him I knew he must be the father of the boy who called. The likeness was UNMISTAKABLE"

[NickB]

Blue Moon

thank you for your reply, but i would like to correct you in saying that richard was born in march 1962

I think Blue Moon saw this post ...

https://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=14673&postcount=295

... and thought he would have a little fun by playing around with some of the facts.

Jimarilyn pointed out at the time that Richard could not have been born as early as March 1962, but Blue Moon just responded with the bald statement (as above) that he was.

[cobalt]

Spitfire,

As you are a man who has a comprehensive knowledge of the A6 Case, I hoped my comments distinguishing between satire and sarcasm might have had a salutary effect.

You latest delusional offerings regarding Cilla Black/White are desperate diversions from a man who has changed sides once, and is determined not to do so again in his dotage. You are starting to sound frightened.

If you have anything to offer on this site, Daily Mail obseravtions excluded, I will be happy to engage wth you. In the interim you might like to start by addressing the numerous points that have been raised regarding conspiracy.

[moste]

Spitfire,

As you are a man who has a comprehensive knowledge of the A6 Case, I hoped my comments distinguishing between satire and sarcasm might have had a salutary effect.

You latest delusional offerings regarding Cilla Black/White are desperate diversions from a man who has changed sides once, and is determined not to do so again in his dotage. You are starting to sound frightened.

If you have anything to offer on this site, Daily Mail obseravtions excluded, I will be happy to engage wth you. In the interim you might like to start by addressing the numerous points that have been raised regarding conspiracy.

A big fat 'hear! hear! ' from me!

I would just mention though that having studied the geography of the Scotand road, and the Vauxhall area , Cilla Black lived about one hundred yards south along the Scottie Road from Cowleys newsagents . Of the 29 such shops from downtown Liverpool to the fork of Stanley road, Cowleys was right on Cilla's doorstep. Her family would have known David Cowley well as their tobacconist and no doubt Cilla would have been friendly with the pleasant mannered Mrs. Dinwoody, and probably the grandchildren. However, all this I consider a coincidence nothing more.
On the other hand , David Cowley was the owner/ operator of a paper shop in a run down slum area in the docklands of Liverpool . By 1965 he would be the Lord Mayor of the City, and to who, none other than acting chief constable Herbert Balmer Would be answerable to. I find that very interesting, and possibly much less of a coincidence than the Cilla deal.
While we're on Scotland road I have to say, there never was a cinema opposite Cowleys. Hanratty was supposed to have made that mention with regards to his alighting the bus , however there was two picture houses , on Scotland road, the 'Derby' and the 'Gaiety' , which he will have passed enroute, whether one of these fixed itself in his mind prior to him getting of the bus.. who knows?
For my part I still think he was in Cowleys, on that Tuesday afternoon, Mrs. Dinwoody, honest as the day is long, never the less got it wrong. Hanratty refused to name his Liverpool contacts out of pure fear , from reprisal.
You can bet your life ,if Balmer could have scooped up a couple or three Scouse thugs and pinned the A6 murder on them , he would have been as happy as Larry.

[Sherlock Houses]

While we're on Scotland road I have to say, there never was a cinema opposite Cowleys. Hanratty was supposed to have made that mention with regards to his alighting the bus , however there was two picture houses , on Scotland road, the 'Derby' and the 'Gaiety' , which he will have passed enroute, whether one of these fixed itself in his mind prior to him getting of the bus.. who knows?
For my part I still think he was in Cowleys, on that Tuesday afternoon, Mrs. Dinwoody, honest as the day is long, never the less got it wrong. Hanratty refused to name his Liverpool contacts out of pure fear , from reprisal.
You can bet your life ,if Balmer could have scooped up a couple or three Scouse thugs and pinned the A6 murder on them , he would have been as happy as Larry.

You are quite correct Moste about there being no cinema directly opposite David Cowley's sweet shop. The two cinemas that you mention were located a couple or so hundred yards before you reached the sweet shop (on opposite sides of Scotland Road).
What remains very revealing is that in a statement made to police on December 30th 1961 Hanratty said that the sweet shop.....'was a corner shop by traffic lights and gents toilets and ladies toilets. Mrs Dinwoodie was by the cigarettes in far counter.' This is absolutely spot on. The black painted metal structures are still there, located on the triangular shaped central reservation, but were paved over a number of years ago and obviously not been used as public conveniences since.

[NickB]

What remains very revealing is that in a statement made to police on December 30th 1961 Hanratty said that the sweet shop.....'was a corner shop by traffic lights and gents toilets and ladies toilets.'

Hanratty was not giving statements to the police on December 30th 1961. I believe you are referring to a document written by Kleinman, who had visited the scene and seen the traffic lights and toilets, which Hanratty had not mentioned.

[Spitfire]

Hanratty was not giving statements to the police on December 30th 1961. I believe you are referring to a document written by Kleinman, who had visited the scene and seen the traffic lights and toilets, which Hanratty had not mentioned.

Correct.

Foot quotes the relevant passage of Hanratty's statement to his lawyers made after his arrest on page 190 of his book (Penguin 1988 edition), the only description of the location is as follows:

"The sweet shop is in the Scotland Road, opposite a picture house."

There is no mention of it being a corner shop, or being opposite public conveniences.

[Sherlock Houses]

Hanratty was not giving statements to the police on December 30th 1961. I believe you are referring to a document written by Kleinman, who had visited the scene and seen the traffic lights and toilets, which Hanratty had not mentioned.

Quite incorrect actually. Hanratty made lengthy statements to police on December 21st 1961, December 30th 1961 and January 10th 1962.

[Sherlock Houses]

There is no mention of it being a corner shop, or being opposite public conveniences.

Just goes to show how little you know.