A6 Rebooted

[moste]

Fink

If Storie hearing Hanratty pronouncing ‘thinking’as ‘finking’ , and that really nailed the whole thing down for her , it makes one realize how totally sheltered ,and unaware of anything outside her own little world she really was .
And unfortunately for Jim, he was the only person in the line up that was going to use that pronunciation. Poor sod!

[moste]

Kip

Growing up in the 50s and early 60s, in greater Manchester, kip, was a familiar fairly well used term,and I’m certain in other areas of the country including London .I have problems with it being used as evidence of a possible suspect being guilty in this case, In fact I would go further and suggest ,another example of ‘straw clutching’.

[OneRound]

Growing up in the 50s and early 60s, in greater Manchester, kip, was a familiar fairly well used term,and I’m certain in other areas of the country including London .I have problems with it being used as evidence of a possible suspect being guilty in this case, In fact I would go further and suggest ,another example of ‘straw clutching’.

Hi Moste - as Spitfire posted earlier, Hanratty denied using the word ''kip'' in and at the end of his police interviews. There have been suggestions that the notes covering those interviews were partially rewritten and replacement pages inserted to fit him up.

The Court of Appeal appeared to acknowledge that there had been some rewriting although they did not consider that there had been any police misconduct. This was another part of their judgement that I found unconvincing. I would have liked the Court to have been clearer as to what pages had apparently been rewritten and whether ''kip'' featured in any of them.

Best regards,

OneRound

[OneRound]

If Storie hearing Hanratty pronouncing ‘thinking’as ‘finking’ , and that really nailed the whole thing down for her , it makes one realize how totally sheltered ,and unaware of anything outside her own little world she really was .
And unfortunately for Jim, he was the only person in the line up that was going to use that pronunciation. Poor sod!

Hi again Moste - at the 2002 appeal, Michael Mansfield QC, acting upon behalf of the Hanratty family, referred to the spoken part of this parade as ''incurably unfair''. Whilst I'm no fan of the champagne lawyer concerned, I believe he was on the money there and that Hanratty's solicitor at the time was badly at fault in allowing matters to proceed unchallenged. Once more, this cut no ice with the Court of Appeal.

Best regards,

OneRound

[moste]

Hi again Moste - at the 2002 appeal, Michael Mansfield QC, acting upon behalf of the Hanratty family, referred to the spoken part of this parade as ''incurably unfair''. Whilst I'm no fan of the champagne lawyer concerned, I believe he was on the money there and that Hanratty's solicitor at the time was badly at fault in allowing matters to proceed unchallenged. Once more, this cut no ice with the Court of Appeal.

Best regards,

OneRound

Thanks O R. Agreed

[moste]

The weapon thing again.

Reading back a decade ago on these boards ,I came across posts by Hanratty supporters that got quite into the Simpson .32 versus police .38 calibre weapons. I had ,a year or so ago serious doubts about the excuses given with what people explained as typos by the good professor, reading other interpretations by people on this issue has convinced me that there is much more to this whole scenario than meets the eye.
Simon Gregsten sadly refers to his fathers face as being blown off . Hardly. As I have mentioned before I have a pathologist photograph of both sides of Gregsten face taken I believe at the mortuary, entry and exit wounds are clearly visible, and I am sure a .38 calibre would have caused more damage than is seen here .
Again with Valerie Stories wounds, (and I intend to get to the bottom of this one)a .38 fired into someones arm at 8 or 10 feet would have caused considerably more damage than she sustained, I believe even with a medium powered cartridge the bullets would certainly have passed through the arm and into the chest cavity. I am of the opinion that the weapon used was a .32 , 7shot revolver, and the police completely messed up with the planting of the .38. Simpson refused to change his report re the weapon calibre as past forum discussions have theorized, and the police hoped it would fly under the radar as it indeed appears to have done.

[Alfie]

...unfortunately for Jim, he was the only person in the line up that was going to use that pronunciation. Poor sod!

Really? Who says?

[Alfie]

I am of the opinion that the weapon used was a .32 , 7shot revolver, and the police completely messed up with the planting of the .38.

So it's a conspiracy (another one!) - one which the police at the scene, Nickolls at the Met Police Lab, Valerie, and the gunman himself were all in on? Riiiight.

[OneRound]

Really? Who says?

Hi Alfie - the key aspect for me (and I suspect for Mansfield) about the spoken part of the parade was that if anyone else on it besides Hanratty had a similar way of speaking as previously described by Valerie Storie to the police, then it was purely by chance. There was no prior checking to ensure that all the voices were broadly similar. That to my mind supports the unfairness here complained of by Mansfield.

Btw, I emphasise and repeat that I do not support any conspiracy theories. I am simply of the view that Hanratty had a raw deal before, at and after trial.

Best regards,

OneRound

[Alfie]

Hi Alfie - the key aspect for me (and I suspect for Mansfield) about the spoken part of the parade was that if anyone else on it besides Hanratty had a similar way of speaking as previously described by Valerie Storie to the police, then it was purely by chance. There was no prior checking to ensure that all the voices were broadly similar. That to my mind supports the unfairness here complained of by Mansfield.

Btw, I emphasise and repeat that I do not support any conspiracy theories. I am simply of the view that Hanratty had a raw deal before, at and after trial.

Best regards,

OneRound

Hi OneRound - even if the police had managed to round up 12 Londoners who said 'finking' instead of 'thinking', I don't think it would have made any difference. It wasn't merely the way he pronounced 'finking' that gave Hanratty away, but the tone of his voice as well - "soft, high-pitched and girlish" didn't somebody describe it as?

We don't know what the voices of the other men on the lineup sounded like, but Valerie said when she heard Hanratty - he was number six in a lineup of 13 - she knew she'd found the killer. She didn't need to hear the other seven speak.

[OneRound]

Hi OneRound - even if the police had managed to round up 12 Londoners who said 'finking' instead of 'thinking', I don't think it would have made any difference. It wasn't merely the way he pronounced 'finking' that gave Hanratty away, but the tone of his voice as well - "soft, high-pitched and girlish" didn't somebody describe it as?

We don't know what the voices of the other men on the lineup sounded like, but Valerie said when she heard Hanratty - he was number six in a lineup of 13 - she knew she'd found the killer. She didn't need to hear the other seven speak.

Hi again Alfie - my comment was merely that there should have been prior checks that the voices on the parade were ''broadly similar''. There was no demand or expectation that the voices should or could be identical.

Let me also again emphasise that I have great sympathy for what Valerie stoically endured. However, following her mistake on the first parade, I cannot regard her as a credible witness.

As regards the wording now in bold, some as cynical as me may recall the words and wisdom of the late Mandy Rice Davies.

PS Having trouble again posting on this site - keeps freezing.

Best regards,

OneRound

[Spitfire]

Hi again Alfie - my comment was merely that there should have been prior checksthhoices on the parade were ''broadly similar''.

So the Police convene an identity parade, and ask Hanratty and his brief if they are happy with it, and get an affirmative reply, what else do you want them to do?

[Spitfire]

I was looking at the modern code of practice for ID parades which can be seen here and noticed para 2.10 which really covers the Hanratty situation.

2.10 False Alibi
The Jury should be told that proving the defendant a liar about where he was at the material time does not per se prove he was committing the offence. However, if the Jury is satisfied that the sole reason for the false alibi was to deceive them, then that false alibi can provide support for identification.

In R v Long (1973)57 Cr.App.R 871 provides an example of this principle.

[OneRound]

So the Police convene an identity parade, and ask Hanratty and his brief if they are happy with it, and get an affirmative reply, what else do you want them to do?

Hi Spitfire - I have since edited and expanded my post upon which you commented. [I pressed a few buttons to try and undo the freezing complained about and ended up posting!]

Whilst I am critical of the Police in this and other parts of the case, you may also have noticed from my post last night that I am particularly scathing about Hanratty's brief in this particular area.

I feel you are being disingenuous in saying Hanratty himself affirmed he was happy with the parade. It wasn't for him to offer a legal opinion on the proceedings. He had every right and expectation for Kleinmann (sp? sorry) to raise all valid concerns.

Best regards,

OneRound

[NickB]

Simpson refused to change his report re the weapon calibre as past forum discussions have theorized, and the police hoped it would fly under the radar as it indeed appears to have done.

In a previous book Simpson referred to the bullets as 0.38.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=368455

So he did change his mind - from 0.38 to 0.32. The absence of a comment from him that he made this change deliberately suggests it was simply an error.