A6 Rebooted

[Alfie]

Did a nurse give evidence about Valerie's knickers at the Committal?

I haven't read Jean Justice's 'Murder vs Murder', but a poster has referenced it, saying on page 74 Justice writes: "It is significant here that one of the nurses from the Bedford General Hospital said in evidence at Ampthill that the state and position of Valerie's knickers indicated that the girl had not been raped in the classical sense of the word."

There is no mention of a nurse giving evidence in the reports I've read of the Ampthill hearing, and I'm struggling to think why one would be questioned about such a matter rather than the doctor who examined Valerie. The only reference I can find to any such evidence is the Glasgow Herald saying, "Mr McDermot [for the Crown] said there was medical evidence that Miss Storie had been ravished by a man who was a blood Group O secretor."

Anyone know whether Justice gave a source for the above quote?

[moste]

I haven't read Jean Justice's 'Murder vs Murder', but a poster has referenced it, saying on page 74 Justice writes: "It is significant here that one of the nurses from the Bedford General Hospital said in evidence at Ampthill that the state and position of Valerie's knickers indicated that the girl had not been raped in the classical sense of the word."

There is no mention of a nurse giving evidence in the reports I've read of the Ampthill hearing, and I'm struggling to think why one would be questioned about such a matter rather than the doctor who examined Valerie. The only reference I can find to any such evidence is the Glasgow Herald saying, "Mr McDermot [for the Crown] said there was medical evidence that Miss Storie had been ravished by a man who was a blood Group O secretor."

Anyone know whether Justice gave a source for the above quote?

Graham is the chap to ask, he seems to know where Justice was coming from

[Spitfire]

I haven't read Jean Justice's 'Murder vs Murder', but a poster has referenced it, saying on page 74 Justice writes: "It is significant here that one of the nurses from the Bedford General Hospital said in evidence at Ampthill that the state and position of Valerie's knickers indicated that the girl had not been raped in the classical sense of the word."

There is no mention of a nurse giving evidence in the reports I've read of the Ampthill hearing, and I'm struggling to think why one would be questioned about such a matter rather than the doctor who examined Valerie. The only reference I can find to any such evidence is the Glasgow Herald saying, "Mr McDermot [for the Crown] said there was medical evidence that Miss Storie had been ravished by a man who was a blood Group O secretor."

Anyone know whether Justice gave a source for the above quote?

Alfie,

Pearl Hobson, a student nurse, gave evidence on the second day of the committal hearing at Ampthill. The cutting is from the Daily Mail of 24th November 1961, and the Express has a similar report. There is no mention of being raped in the "classical way" in any report.

Justice may have had access to the depositions and he may well have got the statement from there.

[Graham]

I also haven't read (not completely, at any rate) Murder vs Murder. It was never published in the UK because of fear of libel actions. However, with regard to the suggestion that rape didn't occur, Leonard Miller quotes a passage from Murder vs Murder in which Justice stated (not suggested) that Alphon forced the couple to have sex whilst he watched. There is absolutely no evidence for any of this. Justice never even met Valerie Storie, let alone interviewed her. And as far as Miller is able to determine, this tale came direct from Justice's own warped mind, not from Alphon at all. Foot and Woffinden make no reference at all to this tale, so I assume from that they didn't believe a word of it. In response to recent queries about Justice, I can only suggest that he had a rather vivid, and perhaps even perverted, imagination. As Miller remarks, it's fitting that Murder vs Murder was actually published by a pornographer. (Olympia Press, Paris, publishers of such masterpieces as Lolita and The Ginger Man. I actually quite like the latter book....)

As an aside, I've wondered for a long time just how well Foot and Justice actually got on - or not. Justice represented just about everything Foot detested.

I think another point to mention, if it hasn't been already, is that in 1961/2 British newspapers, and TV and radio coverage of news events, were far more 'delicate' (for want of a better word) and would I feel have avoided the word 'rape'. Note Mr Mcdermott's use of the word 'ravished', which has slightly different connotations, instead of 'rape'.

Finally, it's always interesting to read press reports of the hearing and the trial. These recorded much information that isn't in the standard books on the A6 Case.

Graham

[Alfie]

... it's always interesting to read press reports of the hearing and the trial. These recorded much information that isn't in the standard books on the A6 Case.

Second this, more please!

[Graham]

Out of interest, I just checked the net and Murder vs Murder copies, varying condition, can be bought from Abe Books, price about £11 and upwards plus p&p. I don't think I'll bother. I also found out that the book, published in France in 1964, could be bought 'under the counter' from Private Eye. I never knew this. The copy I had a quick read of ages ago was borrowed from a colleague who didn't let me keep it long enough to actually finish. From what I can gather, Justice's main interest was in having a pop at the British Legal Establishment, with which he was at odds. There's a few good stories of what he got up to in both Foot and Woffinden. I guess he was what might generously be described as a 'character', and probably stuck out like a sore thumb in 1960's London. I don't think I'd have liked him.

Graham

[NickB]

It would be interesting to see a report of the ‘sink of iniquity’ trial against William Dart in 1960. Apparently this was instigated by Justice through fostering “cordial relations with the police in Savile Row”.

Then there was alleged ‘bribery of police by a barrister’ (Fox?) in 1962 over the parking meter incident. The papers on this were reviewed last year and embargoed until 2033.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10888262

Justice participated in removing the parking meter but he was only charged with receiving it, and it looks like he tried to bribe his way out of even that. He got his ‘chauffeur’ and a friend, James Bryde-Hennessy, to take the blame for removing it. The latter was apparently ‘outed’ by the incident and soon after committed suicide.

[Alfie]

The Morris Minor's mileage

The Court of Appeal judgment says: "... 232 miles had been travelled in the period which elapsed. Depending on when petrol was put in the car, this may have included Michael Gregsten's driving that day (57.4 miles) but must include the drive from the cornfield at Dorney Reach to Deadman's Hill on the A6 (58-65 miles) and, at the very least, the minimum distance from the A6 to Avondale Crescent, Ilford (48.6 miles)."

This left c.60 miles unaccounted for.

My question: how did the court arrive at 57.4 miles as the mileage travelled by Gregsten in the Morris Minor that day?

From what I've read, Gregsten's movements that day were: picked his children up from Sabine House, in Shirley Road, Abbots Langley, took them to Cassiobury Park in Watford and back (c. 7.5 miles), then picked up Valerie at the Road Research Lab in St Mary’s Rd, Langley, and went on to her home in Anthony Way, Cippenham (c.27 miles) and from there on to the Old Station Inn at Taplow (2.7 miles). That is a total of c.37 miles, 20 miles short of what the Court found he travelled. What am I missing?

[NickB]

Didn't he start from his flat in Maidenhead? Maidenhead to Abbots Langley is about 30 miles.

[Alfie]

Didn't he start from his flat in Maidenhead? Maidenhead to Abbots Langley is about 30 miles.

That might account for the discrepancy. Foot has him spending "most of the day at his flat at Abbots Langley." Woffinden just says, "On Tuesday 22nd, he turned up at the Cattons’ at lunchtime, and took Simon and Alistair to Cassiobury Park ..."

[Alfie]

Hanratty's use of "fink" and "kip"

Am I right in thinking that the police must have kept these two evidential nuggets under their hats? It just strikes me that if Hanratty had been forewarned via the press that the gunman used these expressions it would have been a simple matter for him to avoid saying 'fink' on the I.D. parade and to not refer to having a 'kip' while Acott and Oxford were interviewing him?

[Spitfire]

Am I right in thinking that the police must have kept these two evidential nuggets under their hats? It just strikes me that if Hanratty had been forewarned via the press that the gunman used these expressions it would have been a simple matter for him to avoid saying 'fink' on the I.D. parade and to not refer to having a 'kip' while Acott and Oxford were interviewing him?

I would think so. I can't find any reference to the gunman's speech in any of the descriptions issued prior to Hanratty's arrest. Whether he was capable of articulating the word "think" as opposed to "fink" is open to debate.

Hanratty claimed that he had been verballed by Acott and/or Oxford when they said he had used the word "kip" repeatedly during questioning.

[Spitfire]

Didn't he start from his flat in Maidenhead? Maidenhead to Abbots Langley is about 30 miles.

According to a post on another thread here Gregsten had acquired his Maidenhead flat on 1 August 1961 but was not due to move into it until the 27th August.

If he was not living at Sabine House, then the journey mileage from where he was living has to be factored into any calculation of the total mileage.

[Alfie]

Whether he was capable of articulating the word "think" as opposed to "fink" is open to debate.

Miller, quoting Lord Russell, writes: "... according to the speech and phonetics expert who examined Hanratty in prison, although he might well say ‘finking’ in the natural course of a conversation, from sheer habit, he was perfectly capable of pronouncing the diphthong ‘th’: ‘If in any circumstances it was vitally important to him to use ‘th’ instead of ‘f’ or ‘v’, he could certainly produce the sounds ...’ (Russell, 162)"

[Spitfire]

Miller, quoting Lord Russell, writes: "... according to the speech and phonetics expert who examined Hanratty in prison, although he might well say ‘finking’ in the natural course of a conversation, from sheer habit, he was perfectly capable of pronouncing the diphthong ‘th’: ‘If in any circumstances it was vitally important to him to use ‘th’ instead of ‘f’ or ‘v’, he could certainly produce the sounds ...’ (Russell, 162)"

He mustn't have realised that saying 'finking' on the ID parade would give him away.