A6 Rebooted

[moste]

Quote:And here we have Messrs Justice, Fox and Alphon on a boozy night out around and about the murder scene. If you read my earlier post on this subject, you'll see how questionable it is that Alphon had the faintest idea of where the actual crime originated.
Hi Graham.
Looks like Nick B thinks its possible Alphon did his homework on figuring out the correct location.
Also you didn't address my mention in this message of Mrs Climo's experience.

[Graham]

Cobalt, if I may say so, your recollection of the Podola Case is quite wrong. He had been trying to blackmail a woman whose flat he had broken into and had stolen various goods to the value of about £2000. She reported this to the police, who put a tap on her phone. When he rang again, presumably to repeat his threats of blackmail, the woman kept him talking long enough for the police to trace his call to a phone-box at South Kensington tube station. Two detectives actually found him in the phone-box, but he got away and was chased by them to some nearby flats. He was caught, and when one of the detectives went to fetch their car, Podola shot the one holding him and escaped. Possibly he might have got away, but three days later the detective's widow when going through her husband's belongings found Podola's address book, which her husband had taken from him when he arrested him. From this, the police found that Podola was staying in a Kensington hotel. Three days after the murder of the detective, armed police effectively stormed the room on which he was staying and arrested him. There was no previous 'appeal to hotel managers', and the manager of the hotel never alerted the police to Podola's presence there, as they already knew. Acott had some input in this case, but as far as I'm aware he wasn't the senior police officer concerned.

[Graham]

Also you didn't address my mention in this message of Mrs Climo's experience.

Paul Foot wrote that he interviewed Mrs Climo and her husband, and she agreed that it was the door of her house that Justice had hammered on the door of, that night. She confessed, "My husband nearly got his shotgun out to him". Lord, what a caper! But it still doesn't prove that Alphon had been able to show his chums the precise entry to the cornfield. Not that it matters. It was by then public knowledge that the A6 Case had its origins in Marsh Lane, Dorney. And just to repeat: Jeremy Fox admitted, to no less a personage than the Home Secretary himself, that he was not sure whether the order to Stop! came from Justice or Alphon.

Oh, by the way: this is the same Jean Justice who nicked a London parking-meter just for a laugh, who got pinched on a train (with Fox) for being drunk and disorderly, who held drunken gay parties at his country cottage, and who (best of all) was shoved into a nut-house in Vienna when he panicked and told the local police that Alphon was coming out to get him with a gun. Just the kind of bloke you'd rely on, eh?

Graham

[moste]

Oh, by the way: this is the same Jean Justice who nicked a London parking-meter just for a laugh, who got pinched on a train (with Fox) for being drunk and disorderly, who held drunken gay parties at his country cottage, and who (best of all) was shoved into a nut-house in Vienna when he panicked and told the local police that Alphon was coming out to get him with a gun. Just the kind of bloke you'd rely on, eh?

And the same Jean Justice who said’either Alphon is guilty of the A6 murder ,or Ive spent 25 years and a lot of effort wasting my time .(or words to that effect)
Just watched the Panorama show from ‘66 again ,can’t say I care for the man either particularly, but I fail to see how anyone can challenge the mans ardour,in his beliefs of Alphons guilt.
Incidentally, what the hell has drunken gay parties got to do with his later conviction of Alphons guilt?
As for Alphon coming after him with a gun, Those tapes on Panorama are pretty scary, there’s no doubt in my mind amongst other things Alphon was a Lunatic!

[moste]

What does Fox stating ‘he didn’t know who shouted stop’ got to do with anything? I mean Justice didn’t know where the field was!
And in any case , Alphon may easily have said to Justice in the back seat ,’ this is the field here’ so Justice called out ‘stop the car’ . Like chewing a bone with no meat on it, time to move on.

[NickB]

Just watched the Panorama show from ‘66 again, can’t say I care for the man either particularly, but I fail to see how anyone can challenge the mans ardour, in his beliefs of Alphons guilt.

The Panorama programme was Justice’s first big success at getting the media to play his tune.

After an interview with Evans mentioning a paper-seller witness the narrator said: “We searched Rhyl for the paper-seller and found him” - when actually Jones was delivered to them by Evans himself.

They must have known their ‘new witness’ Charlie Jones was lying.
“He come off the bus. He says to me: ‘Where is Terry?’ I told him straight I didn’t know who Terry was. At the time I didn’t know it was the Terry I knew. He says: ‘Which way do you go to the fairground?’ So I pointed down the road and he went down the road that way and he says ‘OK.’ Then he come back and says: ‘Any idea where I can get digs?’ And I says: ‘Yes, go to number 19 Kinmel Street’. I says: ‘Mrs Jones will put you up.’”

How did he know it was a Tuesday?
“The Rhyl Journal and Advertiser was out the next day. The person asked me if we’d got it and we hadn’t got it.”

How did he know it was Hanratty?
“The reason why is I notice his shoes are very bad.”

[moste]

'Quote' After an interview with Evans mentioning a paper-seller witness the narrator said: “We searched Rhyl for the paper-seller and found him” - when actually Jones was delivered to them by Evans himself.
What was wrong with this Nick? I don't see your point.
In fact I don't understand what your getting at regarding the Rhyl witnesses. They are all simple lower working class folk, just not too articulate that's all.
I reckon they're as sound as a pound personally!

[Spitfire]

How did he know it was a Tuesday?
“The Rhyl Journal and Advertiser was out the next day. The person asked me if we’d got it and we hadn’t got it.”

How did he know it was Hanratty?
“The reason why is I notice his shoes are very bad.”

In fairness, I think that Charlie Jones is saying that another person, not the person he is identifying as Hanratty, had just asked him if he had the Rhyl Journal and Advertiser.

It is accepted that Hanratty only knew Terry Evans as "John" so how could he be asking for Terry when he got off the bus?

My recollection is that Charlie retracted these statements before Nimmo.

[NickB]

Charlie Jones admitted that Evans had persuaded him to lie and that he agreed to do so as he was hard pressed for money at that time. But the interview he gave was so obviously rubbish (we can go through it line by line if you wish) and the Panorama producer Jo Menell - working with Paul Foot – would have known that it did not correspond with Hanratty’s account of searching for a guesthouse. One might excuse them by saying that they had not done enough research, but the “We searched Rhyl for the paper-seller” comment suggests deliberate deception.

The narrator also says: ‘Near the railway station, a few doors from a betting shop, he said, there was a boarding house where he found a room.’ But Hanratty never said this. The fact that Ingeldene was three doors down from a betting shop was revealed by Swanwick when he was asking Grace Jones about the local landmarks that Hanratty would have seen but did not mention.

The trick of having the supposedly independent narrator declare falsehoods was used again in the Woffinden documentary ...

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=411838#post411838

[Spitfire]

Charlie Jones admitted that Evans had persuaded him to lie and that he agreed to do so as he was hard pressed for money at that time. But the interview he gave was so obviously rubbish (we can go through it line by line if you wish) and the Panorama producer Jo Menell - working with Paul Foot – would have known that it did not correspond with Hanratty’s account of searching for a guesthouse. One might excuse them by saying that they had not done enough research, but the “We searched Rhyl for the paper-seller” comment suggests deliberate deception.

The narrator also says: ‘Near the railway station, a few doors from a betting shop, he said, there was a boarding house where he found a room.’ But Hanratty never said this. The fact that Ingeldene was three doors down from a betting shop was revealed by Swanwick when he was asking Grace Jones about the local landmarks that Hanratty would have seen but did not mention.

The trick of having the supposedly independent narrator declare falsehoods was used again in the Woffinden documentary ...
http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...838#post411838

Mrs Grace Jones gave evidence and repeated it in the Panorama program that Hanratty occupied Room 4, which is a first floor room at the front of Ingledene. The prosecution produced Mr Sayle who said he was the occupant of Room 4, moreover Hanratty had said his room was at the back. Yet Panorama ignored this.

[Alfie]

The 'manager' at the Vienna Hotel

After police were called to the Alexander Court, DS Kilner phoned the Vienna to verify Alphon's alibi and, according to Hawser, "spoke to a man who said he was the Manager. This man confirmed that a man named Durrant had stayed there on the 22nd/23rd August. The following day the Manager telephoned Mr Kilner and said the Durrant had been in the Hotel from about 10.30 to 11.30 pm onwards on the night of the 22nd/23rd August 1961."

I'm assuming that this 'manager' was Nudds, but none of my sources attach a name to him. Can anyone confirm that it was in fact Nudds who twice spoke to police on August 27/28?

If it was Nudds, and if as seems likely he believed he was merely responding to a routine police inquiry rather than something connected to the A6 murder, then isn't it highly probable that this account, which tallies with his first and third statements, is the true one?

[Graham]

After police were called to the Alexander Court, DS Kilner phoned the Vienna to verify Alphon's alibi and, according to Hawser, "spoke to a man who said he was the Manager. This man confirmed that a man named Durrant had stayed there on the 22nd/23rd August. The following day the Manager telephoned Mr Kilner and said the Durrant had been in the Hotel from about 10.30 to 11.30 pm onwards on the night of the 22nd/23rd August 1961."

I'm assuming that this 'manager' was Nudds, but none of my sources attach a name to him. Can anyone confirm that it was in fact Nudds who twice spoke to police on August 27/28?

If it was Nudds, and if as seems likely he believed he was merely responding to a routine police inquiry rather than something connected to the A6 murder, then isn't it highly probable that this account, which tallies with his first and third statements, is the true one?

Nudds was, technically, the 'manager' of The Vienna; Mr Crocker who found the cartridge-cases was something like 'group manager' of the four hotels in Mr Pichler's little hotel empire. What Nudds told DS Kilner on the phone was essentially what he later told Acott in his First Statement, thus providing Alphon with an alibi. I can't recall reading anywhere that Nudds phoned Kilner the next day. I agree with you that what Nudds told Kilner and later Acott about Alphon's whereabouts on the murder night is the truth. However, as we know, Acott was not prepared to accept this.....

Graham

[NickB]

Woffinden glosses over this on page 48 by saying: “It was apparently confirmed that Alphon had stayed the night of 22/23 August at the Vienna Hotel”.

Then on page 58 he says: “On 27th August the Vienna had been contacted by Highbury Vale Police Station, asking about one of its guests, Frederick Durrant. Subsequently, the police needed a written record of the telephone verification. As a result Juliana Galves went to Harrow Road police station on 6 September to make a statement.”

This implies falsely that it was Galves who took the initial call.

As I have shown, Nudds was actually fired on 5-Sep. Presumably this is why it was Galves who made the confirmatory statement on 6-Sep.

[Graham]

Re: the 1966 Panorama programme featuring Justice, is there a link to this on the internet? I used to have it on video tape, but no longer. Thanks.

Graham

[Alfie]

Panorama programme

Try this Graham ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWjJrllcdkM