A6 Rebooted

[Derrick]

Hi Julie,

The proof that sperm can be detected seperately from other sources of DNA is most of the way down this article -> http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/...ley/riley.html

KR,
Vic.

Hi Vic

From the section you mentioned in the article you linked to above is the following;

The description of this procedure so far is quite ideal. It works pretty much as described for fresh samples. Even with fresh samples however, some of the non-sperm DNA will be trapped in the sperm pellet. This can be a major problem if the amount of sperm is very low or if the samples are aged and degraded. Often male cells, most likely immature sperm or white cells may end up in the supernatant, variously called the “female” fraction or “non-sperm” fraction.

That is why Budowle, Krane et al keep banging on about the inability to infer the tissue source of DNA when using LCN type techniques.

Derrick

[caz]

Hi Graham,

Thanks for your very detailed answer.

Hanratty's own account is not only mixed up and confusing; it's a total mess.

Now that in itself may not be Hanratty's fault. It's not always easy for people not facing a rape and murder charge to cast their mind back and give a confidently accurate account of where they were going, what they were doing and why on any particular occasion.

But Hanratty must have known he was not doing too well with his Liverpool account, even if he was hoping and expecting the good people he bumped into there to offer sufficient confirmation of his presence. So the question remains, and must have remained in the minds of the jury, the defence, the prosecution, and everyone else involved: why not mention, at that time, the hours he allegedly spent going to Rhyl, staying in Rhyl, talking to the good people there, and travelling back down south again afterwards? It makes absolutely no sense unless he only thought of it later, when Liverpool had gone tits up for him. The more places he went to, and the more people who saw him or spoke to him, the better, in the life or death situation he knew he was in, the moment he knew he was being sought in connection with the A6 murder.

Hi Derrick,

Ah, thanks for this. I suspected that might be the case but wasn't sure. Then the defence totally ballsed things up if they added to an innocent Hanratty's stupidity of keeping silent about Rhyl, by showing just this photo to potential Rhyl witnesses (and possibly asking leading questions) instead of showing them a dozen photos to see if they recognised anyone and could describe the circumstances unaided (ie without giving away any hints about who, where or when).

Sadly for Hanratty, the fatal flaws were in no way limited to the prosecution's case against him. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If it hadn't been for bad luck this man would have had no luck at all. A thousand ways his skin could and should have been saved if he didn't commit that crime. And I have yet to hear of a workable scenario in which anyone trying to set him up from the beginning could have had a realistic hope of succeeding - and succeeding so well.

Even if the DNA identifications (of JH, VS and MG) can be dismissed as unreliable (or JH's the result of contamination, which I believe you have disputed, on the grounds that it would first need to be confirmed as JH's?) the specific results were still gobsmackingly unlucky and unlikely, in the event that someone other than JH was the rapist. If Agatha Christie had come up with such a story, with such an ending, and made Poirot announce that someone other than JH dunnit, her most loyal readers would have groaned and concluded she had gone gaga.

Love,

Caz
X

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,

The proof that sperm can be detected seperately from other sources of DNA is most of the way down this article -> http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/...ley/riley.html

KR,
Vic.

Thank you Vic - but the article does very little to convince me that the method of testing on the Hanratty/Storie items was reliable. In fact - the article does much to describe how many problems can be caused by testing degraded or particularly small amounts of DNA.

[caz]

Hi Limehouse,

But I imagine the problems that can be caused would relate more to results that are clearly ambiguous, or less than conclusive, or difficult to interpret with total accuracy, or where the rest of the case evidence, or the original conviction, points in another direction.

When they looked at those results in the context of the rape victim's testimony and stated certainty, when confronted with the man who couldn't prove he was elsewhere and went on to be convicted, there was little to be called into question. It all fitted. Had anything not fitted, Hanratty might still not have been proved innocent, but we can be sure the appeal would have had a very different ending.

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

As far as I can remember, Caz, the details themselves did not match in any respect. Mrs Dinwoodie describes someone who spoke with either a Welsh or Scottish aceent; it doesn't matter how much anyone tries to twist that, neither of those accents resembles a London accent in any way.

Mrs Dinwoodie also said she herself was too busy and barely spoke to him anyway, and other customers took him to the door and pointed out a bus stop and direction to him.

I don't have the books I'm afraid, but from what I can remember, when examined closely, the details don't match up, and that is why the alibi was not able to be made more of in court. It is the Rhyl alibi all over again in that the details are all mis-matching (e.g. witnesses alleging they saw Hanratty at a time he could not have been there/said himself he wasnt there).

NB this was in the third statement Nudds made.He made a second which implicated Alphon and this is from his last statement which is similar to the first but he has added to it and altered changed and added to the first

And let's not forget this was all supposed to have happened on a day when it is known Hanratty was in London with the Frances.

It is quite important to remember here,Jen, that William Nudds was the man who brought J.Ryan into the A6 murder case----not only did he introduce him but immediately placed him centre stage-Nudds had this to say about the vexed question of Hanratty"s accent :

Ryan[Hanratty] had an accent--possibly Irish......


So it wasn"t just Mrs Dinwoody who thought he had a celtic accent!

From statement no 3 by Nudds--which he had added to after the contradictory 2nd statement implicating Alphon.

[babybird67]

are you sure Nats?

For one, I don't rely on Nudds for anything, since as you yourself are fond of pointing out, he was a liar and a criminal and therefore not very trustworthy.

I am not sure Hanratty's connection to the case came from Nudds at all. I thought it was more to do with his driving in Ireland? Can someone with the books elucidate here.

And of course Hanratty's connection to the Vienna doesnt come from Nudds but from his own signature in the guest book and his own admission.

If Hanratty did have an Irish inflexion to his accent, surely the objections about his accent prejudicing him because he was clearly a Londoner need to be dropped when discussing his ID parade.

[Natalie Severn]

I have several books Jen and the first time Hanratty is brought into the case is when Nudds refers to him---as Ryan.
Acott and Oxford were only interested in Alphon up until the end of September.This is really ,really bizarre because William Ewer[see his published statement in the Sunday Times of 16th May 1971],had, by his own admission, followed Hanratty into Burtol"s Dry Cleaners---two yards away and directly opposite his antique shop in Swiss Cottage arcade.This was on on September 1st,one week after the murder.He did so because he was having a coffee in the Fal a Fal the cafe nearby and thought he saw a man who looked exactly like the police description of a man with staring blue eyes*.From the Dry Cleaners he rushed in and out of another few shops including the Flower Shop run buy Mrs Dorothy Morrell--who, even in 1971,distinctly remembered the incident of two plain clothes police calling to quizz her about Ryan/ Hanratty in the first week of September 1961.As it happened Hanratty had indeed been into both the Dry Cleaners and the Flower shop in the first week of September using the name Ryan in both shops.William Ewer had called Scotland Yard and Mrs Dorothy Morrell of Cater"s Florists ,did show both men the name of Ryan who had bought roses for a "Mrs Hanratty of Sycamore Gardens, Kingsbury"./So Scotland Yard had been informed of both Ryan"s name and address,one week after the murder.
But all this Jen does not really have anything to do with Hanratty having been thought to have an Irish accent by William Nudds or a Scottish or Welsh accent by Mrs Dinwoody.Suffice is surely to say both people found his accent to have a celtic lilt ?
Best
Norma
*Another very bizarre twist is that up until the 1st September 1961 the police description was of a man with "deep set brown eyes".
Any paper you care to research from that week describes a man with brown hair brushed straight back and deep set brown eyes.So it has to be noted that William Ewer adjusted his internal image of the gunman to both the amazing coincidence of his sighting of Hanratty/Ryan to that very day"s sighting----September Ist.

[Archaic]

Questions Regarding Why The A6 Case Is Important To You

Hello everyone, long time no see!

I would like to ask all of you a few questions.

Being an American, I was unfamiliar with the A6 murders, so a while back I did some reading on them. I understand that the case took many twists and turns, including conflicting testimony, confessions that may be false, and a death sentence that some feel was imposed on an innocent man.
But it's still hard for me as a Yank to understand why this case inspires such passionate interest amongst Brits. There are other bizarre English murders that don't seem to inspire this level of interest and emotion, and I'm trying to understand why this case does.

>> I was wondering if any of you would care to share the answers to a few questions so the rest of us can put the A6 murders in better perspective?

- Why is this case of the A6 murders personally important to you?

- How and when did you become interested in it?

- What aspects of this case particularly fascinate you and inspire you to study the case in detail?

- What aspects of this case do you feel are important for others to understand because they relate to issues of Justice?

- What (if any) lasting effect do you think this case will have on England and her citizens?

Thanks for your help and best regards,
Archaic

[babybird67]

Hello everyone, long time no see!

HI welcome to the thread.

>> I was wondering if any of you would care to share the answers to a few questions so the rest of us can put the A6 murders in better perspective?

- Why is this case of the A6 murders personally important to you?

Because I believe passionately in justice, especially in women's rights and the aspects of rape that come into this case get my passions stirring completely. While there are arguments around which attempt to discredit the victim's testimony either on her reliability or her integrity, I want to be around to defend her. I think that is vitally important to me as a woman and as a human being. As someone once said to me, all it takes for evil to flourish is for a few good men to do nothing.

- How and when did you become interested in it?

My good friend Victor got me interested in it...probably about a year ago now. We had a long chat in the chat room, i then read the thread, and borrowed Graham's books on the subject.

- What aspects of this case particularly fascinate you and inspire you to study the case in detail?

The motive is still the most unknown thing for me. However, i see the motive as something inexplicable. In that this really was an accidental murder. Of course the rape and attempted murder were deliberate acts of evil, which followed on from the accidental shooting of Gregsten. So really it is a mistake to look for a motive. There really wasn't one. But it is Hanratty's psychology I think there is more learning to be done about, perhaps to progress the understanding of criminal psychology.

What aspects of this case do you feel are important for others to understand because they relate to issues of Justice?

Well it is like banging one's head on a brick wall sometimes. But the issues about women's rights, the protection and validation of a rape victim's experience. The fact that the DNA results really are inarguable because those things that could undermine them there really is no evidence for, eg contamination. I feel constantly asking the same questions over the past four decades undermines justice. The fact that once a defendant has had his due recourse to the law in terms of a trial and its related appeals that it is really time to accept that justice has been done and to move on. Innocent until proven guilty. Guilt has been proven. Get over it is my attitude to be honest. I can't understand those that seem to want a justice system predicated on the principle of innocent always, even after due process of law. That's what keeps me posting here.



-

What (if any) lasting effect do you think this case will have on England and her citizens?

Not sure there will be any really long-lasting effects. Thankfully capital punishment is no more. I doubt there will be any more legal undertaking on the behalf of the Hanratty representatives to undermine the DNA any longer, it is just a few fringe believers who seem to appear to romanticise Hanratty as some kind of good-hearted wide boy that find it difficult to accept the facts in the case, which are that Hanratty was guilty, so says his surviving victim, the original jury, the appeal judges and the DNA evidence.

[Derrick]

Hello

- Why is this case of the A6 murders personally important to you?

It isn't, Newcastle employing Philip Dowd to award them 2 penalties and not sending off Nolan is very personal, believe me.

- How and when did you become interested in it?

A long time ago.

- What aspects of this case particularly fascinate you and inspire you to study the case in detail?

Because Hanratty was fitted up like a kipper and it aint on John, know what I mean?

- What aspects of this case do you feel are important for others to understand because they relate to issues of Justice?

Dont trust a copper or a lawyer, they are the same beast.

- What (if any) lasting effect do you think this case will have on England and her citizens?

That DNA evidence will be made inadmissable in courts of law.

Derrick

[Limehouse]

Hello Archaic - and welcome to the thread.

Why is this case of the A6 murders personally important to you?

I don't think justice was done for any of the victims in this case.

How and when did you become interested in it?

Since childhood - overhearing the conversations of adults but I started to investigate it furthe in my teens.

What aspects of this case particularly fascinate you and inspire you to study the case in detail?

The finality - the inhumanity of capital punishment - the motive for the crime and the truth behind the lies and confusion.

What aspects of this case do you feel are important for others to understand because they relate to issues of Justice?

That if you hang the wrong person - justice is not achieved for the victims.

What (if any) lasting effect do you think this case will have on England and her citizens?

Almost no effect at all. Most people have forgotten the events or are unaware that they even took place. It's a bit like JtR - the discussions and arguments will rage and probably no solution will satisfy everyone.

I must say - they are brilliant questions to ask Archaic. Some of us could learn a lot from you.

[Limehouse]

Hi Limehouse,

But I imagine the problems that can be caused would relate more to results that are clearly ambiguous, or less than conclusive, or difficult to interpret with total accuracy, or where the rest of the case evidence, or the original conviction, points in another direction.

When they looked at those results in the context of the rape victim's testimony and stated certainty, when confronted with the man who couldn't prove he was elsewhere and went on to be convicted, there was little to be called into question. It all fitted. Had anything not fitted, Hanratty might still not have been proved innocent, but we can be sure the appeal would have had a very different ending.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz - nice to see you back posting.

Good points. For me - the DNA evidence is troublesome scientifically because we cannjot know how much handling the garments were subjected to before they were stored away and we do not know how much contact they had with each other. Additionally - the amount of deposit the scientists were able to extract was very minimal and the quality was poor. That meant that LCN testing had to be carried out and it is far less realiable than other more straightforward methods.

It is true that DNA is always considered in context with other evidence. That's a problem for me too. It is the quality of the other evidence that worried me to start with. Valerie's testimony is very important and I would not question it so easily if I could be sure that Acott was not leading her strongly. But there are many other aspects to the evidence that do bother me and I am always going to have grave doubts about Hanratty's guilt.

[caz]

For me - the DNA evidence is troublesome scientifically because we cannjot know how much handling the garments were subjected to before they were stored away and we do not know how much contact they had with each other.

Hi Limehouse,

Couldn't have been much, surely, or there would have been a mixed profile on the hanky to sort out, and the (totally expected) mixed profile obtained from the knickers would have had other, unexplained elements, not just the one that matched perfectly with the hanky and JH, the one that matched with VS and the one attributed to MG.

For me, Derrick has thrown my own old spanner in the works: you can't have it both ways and need to decide which potentially innocent explanation you are going with. How can it be claimed that the evidence was contaminated with innocent JH DNA (and only with JH DNA) if Derrick is right about the impossibility of identifying any of it reliably, either as JH's, VS's or MG's? It's a problem that I personally don't have, which means I don't need to figure out the solution.

It is true that DNA is always considered in context with other evidence. That's a problem for me too. It is the quality of the other evidence that worried me to start with. Valerie's testimony is very important and I would not question it so easily if I could be sure that Acott was not leading her strongly. But there are many other aspects to the evidence that do bother me and I am always going to have grave doubts about Hanratty's guilt.

Valerie is, and was, an intelligent woman as far as I can make out. She wanted the right man to pay for what happened, not just anyone, so she must have been devastated after that first id parade when she realised she had picked out a volunteer and her rapist was not even there. I doubt very much that Acott had the power to lead her strongly after that. She wasn't going to screw up a second time.

Having said all that, I do find you a heck of a lot more balanced and objective than most of the posters who still have sore misgivings about JH's guilt, despite everything we now know.

If anyone would like to explain the JH as patsy theory again, and how it could have worked so well in practice, I'm all ears (as Prince Charles would say).

Love,

Caz
X

[Victor]

Hello everyone, long time no see!

I would like to ask all of you a few questions.

Welcome Archaic, those were a good set of questions...

Why is this case of the A6 murders personally important to you?

Originally I thought it was a clear miscarriage of justice - the prosecution had not clearly shown he was guilty - there was plenty of reasonable doubt. What made this case a significant worry was the fact that Hanratty was executed and barring certain cases (such as mass murderers like Peter Sutcliffe) I'm definitely anti-death penalty.

How and when did you become interested in it?

My mum was a huge Beatles fan and from the film John Lennon promoted got the Foot book - which I read many years ago.

What aspects of this case particularly fascinate you and inspire you to study the case in detail?

Lack of motive.

The escalation after the rape - as Valerie's evidence ultimately did convict Hanratty it shows he should have made sure he finished her off, and he would have probably got away with it had she not survived. The fact she has battled on for the last 40 years is highly admirable.

What aspects of this case do you feel are important for others to understand because they relate to issues of Justice?

The fact that even when a case is not conclusively proven, the suspect can still be guilty. I have similar feelings about Sion Jenkins, but I feel he literally got away with murder.

What (if any) lasting effect do you think this case will have on England and her citizens?

I think the most lasting effect it has had is the abolition of capital punishment in the UK (or a significant contribution to it) - although I agree with others that most people now are unaware of the details of this case.

I have seen the case used in recent years as a justification for capital punishment in that "the wrong man was not hanged".

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

Linking Ryan to Hanratty

On the morning of Tuesday 26 September the police went to 72 Wood Lane, Kingsbury, which was the address 'Ryan' had placed in the Vienna's visitor-book. There they met Mr George Pratt who showed them a letter he'd received, addressed to a Mr Ryan. The letter was from a car-hire firm in Dublin. Later that same day Acott went to Hanratty's parents' house, so the link had obviously been made between then and their visit to Mr Pratt.

There is a strong suggestion that on the same day Dixie France went to Scotland Yard with a postcard he'd received from Hanratty in Ireland - which also suggests that Dixie must have had some kind of suspicion that his mate was linked with the A6.

Nudds did not make the link - he only pointed out to the police Ryan's name in the visitor-book. That alerted the police to begin searching for a man called Ryan.

Graham