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  • Originally posted by NickB View Post
    That does not make sense to me.

    If that is what happened, why didnít the defence team declare that their DNA expert did not consider the testing system valid?

    Statements made by the defence in the 2002 Appeal show that, although they had qualms about contamination, they accepted that the testing system used was valid:...
    Dr Lincoln stepped down even before the CCRC investigation was signed off in March 1999.

    The FSS assured the CCRC that LCN would be validated for case use by the end of 1999. In fact LCN was as invalid then as it still is today. There are no satisfactorily peer reviewed work done on it at all.

    That was the end of the CCRC's involvement. The actual appeal wasn't heard until over 3 years later.

    In that time the CPS instructed the Met Police to completely reinvestigate the CCRC's findings and do independent DNA tests on the residual test tubes (by Dr Whitaker). This used SGM+ again subverted to LCN.

    As I have said previously Bindman's were still scraping around for an expert only a couple of months before the appeal was heard in April 2002.

    Evison admitted at the hearing that he had no experience of SGM, SGM+ or LCN as performed by the FSS. It would have been nigh on impossible to get an expert to refute the FSS's results to any convincing degree as all of the experts worked for the FSS at that time.

    The appellant was ill-prepared and just accepted the CPS's findings and went down the contamination route.

    Comment


    • Thanks OneRound.

      Yes, that was my thinking too ...

      ... a desperate JH asks a Liverpool mate, similar build, similar age, for an alibi for the Tuesday.

      Mate says, "Well, if I remember rightly, I went into a sweetshop on the Scotland Road that afternoon and asked for directions to Talbot Road. The old duck serving should remember that. You could use that."

      JH thanks him and concocts a bus ride up Scotland Road to tie that incident in with a search for his fence.

      Only trouble is, his Scots/Welsh mate has got the days mixed up and given him an alibi for the Monday, not the Tuesday.

      He didn't have a lot luck, did Jim.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Alfie View Post
        Thanks OneRound.

        Yes, that was my thinking too ...

        ... a desperate JH asks a Liverpool mate, similar build, similar age, for an alibi for the Tuesday.

        Mate says, "Well, if I remember rightly, I went into a sweetshop on the Scotland Road that afternoon and asked for directions to Talbot Road. The old duck serving should remember that. You could use that."

        JH thanks him and concocts a bus ride up Scotland Road to tie that incident in with a search for his fence.

        Only trouble is, his Scots/Welsh mate has got the days mixed up and given him an alibi for the Monday, not the Tuesday.

        He didn't have a lot luck, did Jim.
        Thanks in turn, Alfie.

        I would also speculate that there were similarities with the 'Rhyl alibi' and Jim's continuing bad luck.

        I feel he had the confidence to switch his whereabouts on the night concerned to Rhyl as he had already been told that his story would be supported. However, what he had not foreseen was that support being so disastrous and fatal.

        Best regards,

        OneRound

        Comment


        • Originally posted by OneRound View Post
          And finally we end up in Rhyl. I acknowledge this is the high watermark of my speculation but I do wonder if somehow Terry Evans suggested this alibi to Hanratty
          If Evans did give a statement to the defence on 30-Jan he could well have been in contact with Hanratty just before when the alibi was conceived.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NickB View Post
            If Evans did give a statement to the defence on 30-Jan he could well have been in contact with Hanratty just before when the alibi was conceived.
            And just how the hell did Terry Evans get to discuss this subterfuge given the fact that Hanratty had been on remand in a fairly high security prison (Brixton) since the 14th October?

            If Terry Evans had written to or visited Hanratty in prison the Crown would have been all over it. No?

            This line of argument is ridiculous and those involved know it!

            Comment


            • Why was Terry Evans so difficult to find on 22/23 and 24 August 1961?

              Comment


              • I suppose the answer is that we do not know how difficult it would have been to find Evans at that time. He was found by Gillbanks, but not by Justice and Fox when they went to Rhyl. Jones refused to talk to them about the case.

                Then in 1966 Foot went to Rhyl with Panorama producer Jo Menell; they talked to both Evans and Jones.

                Evans told them he “had heard later from several people that a young Londoner had been looking for him that night.” Menell asked him to round them up in time for the film crew’s arrival the following week.

                According to the owner of Dixie’s Cafe Evans went around trying to get people to say they had seen Hanratty looking for him. The only person who agreed to do so was Charlie Jones, who later admitted his motivation was money.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Derrick View Post
                  And just how the hell did Terry Evans get to discuss this subterfuge given the fact that Hanratty had been on remand in a fairly high security prison (Brixton) since the 14th October?

                  If Terry Evans had written to or visited Hanratty in prison the Crown would have been all over it. No?

                  This line of argument is ridiculous and those involved know it!
                  Hi Del - any such subterfuge is certainly speculative and I believe I've always presented it as just that. However, I feel you protest too much in claiming it to be 'ridiculous'. I assure you I do not 'know' it to be that.

                  Whilst on remand, Hanratty associated with and spoke to other prisoners. Some of them would have had visitors. That might have provided indirect means of communication to and from Hanratty.

                  The above to my mind is at least more likely than Hanratty staying at Ingledene on the night of Gregsten's murder which I consider as being shown to be totally unrealistic. My thinking is that Hanratty would not have switched alibis without an assurance that his new one would be supported.

                  I'll end if I may with a question for you. Do you consider I'm wrong about Ingledene and that Hanratty was there on the night concerned?

                  Best regards,

                  OneRound

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by NickB View Post
                    I suppose the answer is that we do not know how difficult it would have been to find Evans at that time. He was found by Gillbanks, but not by Justice and Fox when they went to Rhyl. Jones refused to talk to them about the case.
                    But Evans would have known his own whereabouts for those dates. Did he ever say why Unlucky Jim could not find him on the evening of 22 August, the whole of 23rd and most of the 24th?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by OneRound View Post
                      ...any such subterfuge is certainly speculative and I believe I've always presented it as just that. However, I feel you protest too much in claiming it to be 'ridiculous'. I assure you I do not 'know' it to be that...
                      Speculative...you're not kidding.

                      Originally posted by OneRound View Post
                      Whilst on remand, Hanratty associated with and spoke to other prisoners. Some of them would have had visitors. That might have provided indirect means of communication to and from Hanratty...
                      Cobblers. This is totally ridiculous. Hanratty trying to get a message to Terry Evans via who in particular eh? And then getting a message back.

                      He didn't even know Evan's name in July 1961? He just knew him as John.

                      I can see the hilarity in the yard at Brixton when Jimmy asked a lag to get a message to John the Taxi in Rhyl.

                      I can also see the non-hilarity when it comes through the criminal wire in Rhyl that the A6 murderer is asking for John the Taxi who knows fences etc.

                      Um! Problem.

                      Originally posted by OneRound View Post
                      The above to my mind is at least more likely than Hanratty staying at Ingledene on the night of Gregsten's murder which I consider as being shown to be totally unrealistic. My thinking is that Hanratty would not have switched alibis without an assurance that his new one would be supported...
                      Perhaps then his alibi was true. Ever thought of that and that the prosecution's case was nonsense?

                      Originally posted by OneRound View Post
                      I'll end if I may with a question for you. Do you consider I'm wrong about Ingledene and that Hanratty was there on the night concerned...
                      Yes I believe he was. I think now that Henry Parry was instrumental in putting Sayle into Ingledene that week for the prosecution. Parry was completely uncooperative thereafter with anyone bar the Nimmo inquiry.

                      I certainly believe he was in Rhyl that night because of the statements of Larman and Walker who got his hair state and the date and approximate time correct.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Spitfire View Post
                        But Evans would have known his own whereabouts for those dates. Did he ever say why Unlucky Jim could not find him on the evening of 22 August, the whole of 23rd and most of the 24th?
                        Evans gave his evidence on 9-Feb-62. I think he said that he had changed jobs and therefore Jim would not have seen him or his taxi at the fairground, but Iíve just garnered this from other posts.

                        There was a curious incident when the trial resumed after the weekend on 12-Feb. Swanwick told the judge that Evans had been trying to get in touch with the police. He asked the judge to hear what Evans had to say, Gorman agreed and asked the jury to withdraw. Presumably the press were not allowed to report what he said, they just relay that the judge recalled the jury eight minutes later. Grace Jones then continued her evidence.

                        When Foot went on his first pilgrimage to Rhyl in 1966, Evans told him that he had not been in town on 22-Aug-61. I would be interested if anyone can show that he said this at the trial.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Derrick View Post
                          Speculative...you're not kidding.



                          Cobblers. This is totally ridiculous. Hanratty trying to get a message to Terry Evans via who in particular eh? And then getting a message back.

                          He didn't even know Evan's name in July 1961? He just knew him as John.

                          I can see the hilarity in the yard at Brixton when Jimmy asked a lag to get a message to John the Taxi in Rhyl.

                          I can also see the non-hilarity when it comes through the criminal wire in Rhyl that the A6 murderer is asking for John the Taxi who knows fences etc.

                          Um! Problem.



                          Perhaps then his alibi was true. Ever thought of that and that the prosecution's case was nonsense?



                          Yes I believe he was. I think now that Henry Parry was instrumental in putting Sayle into Ingledene that week for the prosecution. Parry was completely uncooperative thereafter with anyone bar the Nimmo inquiry.

                          I certainly believe he was in Rhyl that night because of the statements of Larman and Walker who got his hair state and the date and approximate time correct.
                          Hi Del - thanks for your response and own speculative comments.

                          I would just flag that at Hanratty's trial, fellow prisoners spoke of their conversations with him. They were called by the defence to speak in support of Hanratty's denial of involvement with this crime and in an attempt to rebut Langdale's statements to the court. Even if Hanratty didn't know Evans' proper name at the time, the opposite most certainly was not the case. Furthermore, Evans knew where Hanratty was if he wanted to reach him.

                          I didn't follow your comment about Henry Parry ''putting Sayle into Ingledene that week for the prosecution''. I thought Sayle's own evidence did that together with his signature in the guest book (something that Hanratty failed to do for any of the different nights and any of the different rooms he stayed there).

                          Best regards,

                          OneRound

                          Comment


                          • Picture this,(since we are having a speculate,)Dixie France gets a vicious and terrifying message from the Liverpool underworld along the lines, 'One more word from Hanratty about anything to do with his past contacts up on the merseyside ,names,places,addresses,anything at all ,and it's curtains for his(France's) family, and Hanratty and his family to boot'. Since the sinister gang that France may well have introduced Jimmy to,we're not about to get nailed by Liverpools top police psycho Herbert Barmer , for any involvement Hanratty may have had with them, they tell France to somehow get word to Hanratty 'he had better shut his trap now or else! France immediately gets word to the defence via the Hanratty family or someone connected to the defence. On hearing this revelation, Jim immediate closes up shop on the Liverpool scene and introduces the Rhyl shenanigans.
                            This or something like this prompts Dixie to make the exclamation "My god they're going to crucify us all". Possibly ,further damning and extremely threatening words of advice ,from the Bull ring area up in the north west,added to his obvious intense guilt feelings of his part played in Jims pending death,and subsequently tops himself.
                            It may well be that there would be a difficulty in Hanratty getting word out,but not for someone to get word in.Herein lay the reason for Hanrattys so called ambush alibi.Sherrard surely must have told his client when he got him to sign the form of instruction' If you do this you will almost certainly hang.'

                            Comment


                            • Just done some more reading on Herbert Balmer assistant chief Liverpool police.
                              Hell ! he was one scary dude.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by moste View Post
                                Picture this,(since we are having a speculate,)Dixie France gets a vicious and terrifying message from the Liverpool underworld along the lines, 'One more word from Hanratty about anything to do with his past contacts up on the merseyside ,names,places,addresses,anything at all ,and it's curtains for his(France's) family, and Hanratty and his family to boot'. Since the sinister gang that France may well have introduced Jimmy to,we're not about to get nailed by Liverpools top police psycho Herbert Barmer , for any involvement Hanratty may have had with them, they tell France to somehow get word to Hanratty 'he had better shut his trap now or else! France immediately gets word to the defence via the Hanratty family or someone connected to the defence. On hearing this revelation, Jim immediate closes up shop on the Liverpool scene and introduces the Rhyl shenanigans.
                                This or something like this prompts Dixie to make the exclamation "My god they're going to crucify us all". Possibly ,further damning and extremely threatening words of advice ,from the Bull ring area up in the north west,added to his obvious intense guilt feelings of his part played in Jims pending death,and subsequently tops himself.
                                It may well be that there would be a difficulty in Hanratty getting word out,but not for someone to get word in.Herein lay the reason for Hanrattys so called ambush alibi.Sherrard surely must have told his client when he got him to sign the form of instruction' If you do this you will almost certainly hang.'
                                Hi Moste - I accept at least the wording in bold although Del, a strong supporter of Hanratty's innocence seemingly like yourself, considers it 'ridiculous'.

                                I take it that you and Del also disagree as to Hanratty's whereabouts on the night concerned. Unlike Del's belief in the Rhyl alibi or 'Rhyl shenanigans' as you put it, you appear to have him in Liverpool as per his original claim. The implication of that is that you have no time for the statements of Larman and Walker by which Del places great faith.

                                Best regards,

                                OneRound

                                Comment

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