A6 Rebooted

[Victor]

Valerie picked out Michael Clark as the man who had raped her.
She later, in court,stated that she thought Michael Clark looked a bit like Alphon.

Yes Norma, but it was you who posted the link to wikipedia "Culprit absent vs culprit present" article which includes the line...
According to eyewitness researchers, the most likely cause of this increased occurrence of misidentification is what is termed the "relative judgment" process. That is, when viewing a group of photos or individuals, a witness tends to select the person who looks "most like" the perpetrator. When the actual perpetrator is not present in the lineup, the police suspect is often the person who best fits the description, hence his or her selection for the lineup.

Yes -despite the astonishing inconsistency of the identikit Valerie composed looking nothing like Hanratty but a dead ringer for Alphon!

That's entirely subjective and lots of people have said the opposite, including Charlotte France.

With such a potentially fatal error as Valerie"s

It was only ever "potentially fatal" for Alphon.

For example,you were quick to use terms such as "psychobabble and quackery" in response to verbatim quotes I took from a book by the American Military Service psychiatrist ,John D Campbell, regarding the similarities I suggested appear to be the case ,between Alphon"s personality and that of a schizoid personality,as described by Campbell.

I used the terms "psychobabble and quackery" specifically in reference to your diagnosis that Alphon was schizoid personality without having met the man and using biased hearsay and selected second and third-hand accounts to form the opinion. Any such appraisal is highly speculative and no reputable professional would make a solid diagnosis on such flimsy evidence.

Returning to conventional psychiatry you yourself appear to demonstrate some shortcomings regarding your "spatial" intelligence quotient, if you honestly believe the identikit Valerie helped compose of her rapist looked anything like Hanratty while failing totally to see the astonishing similarity it bears to Alphon. You must be among the very few people on the planet who cannot see that , seriously.

Charlotte France thought Hanratty looked like the identikit and she directly compared it to him - something we'll never be able to do - so lots of people have lots of personal opinions. Personally I think it depends which pictures you use to compare and on the whole the identikits look more like Hanratty than they do Alphon.

Valerie remains convinced that it was Hanraty that raped and shot her and killed Gregsten. And to me that's the opinion that matters most of all.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

What you state is totally untrue.I could give you half a dozen quotes to demonstrate that Michael Sherrard,in May 2002,just after the appeal result ,had tremendous doubt over the handling of the DNA....eg he asks why on earth a piece of cloth from Valerie"s knickers was kept "on ice" by the police for 30 years or more.
Sherrard had many doubts about that result.

Hi Norma,

But we know that Sherrard is wrong, the kicker fragment was not deliberately kept, nor was it (prior to 1991) "on ice".

And of course he has said "The wrong man was not hanged."

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Don"t you see that if it was Hanratty who left them ,on the morning of 22nd August then they must have been fired the day before the murder took place. This is what has never been explained properly.

I think it's you that needs to pay more attention Norma. The used cartridge cases could have been fired at any point before 22nd August.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

I think it's you that needs to pay more attention Norma. The used cartridge cases could have been fired at any point before 22nd August.

KR,
Vic.

Where? In the Vienna Hotel?Veery unlikely.

[Natalie Severn]

Vic, I am posting these again so we can see what we are talking about.If you examine the jawlines in each of the pictures you will see that Alphon"s most resembles both identikits.The same goes for the straight brushed back hair and exact hairline resembling Alphon ,especially in Valerie"s identikit on left.Hanratty had a "widows peek" which stopped him from being able to brush his hair straight back.
The almond shape of the eyes is also a match for Alphon on the left and right ,but not for Hanratty whose eyes are rounder and not so dark or deep set as those either on the left or on the right even, which again are closer regarding eye shape and tone to Alphon"s .Alphon had a longer nose than Hanratty and this is denoted in the identikit on the left.

[Victor]

I am posting these again so we can see what we are talking about.

Hi Norma,

Any judgment will be completely subjective and the photos are cherry picked so that you get the result you want. Foot and Woffinden did exactly the same, but at least Foot used two pictures of Alphon and two of Hanratty to compare. Also there's no way of telling the magnification on the photos which can completely distort direct comparisons such as you are trying to make.

You forgot to mention the one bushier eyebrow too.

Anyway you haven't convinced me to change my opinion - I still think that from your images Valerie's identikit looks more like Hanratty than Alphon.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Where? In the Vienna Hotel?Veery unlikely.

I completely agree - it was stupid of you to suggest that the gun was fired in the Vienna Hotel. You are obviously falling into the tired old routine of making stupid suggestions to ridicule any conclusions drawn.

It's the same as asking Acott if it is possible to get from the sweetshop in Liverpool to the cornfield in time for the heist. The honest answer is yes it is possible by plane, but utterly implausible.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

the same as asking Acott if it is possible to get from the sweetshop in Liverpool to the cornfield in time for the heist. The honest answer is yes it is possible by plane, but utterly implausible.

Ha Ha! It was Acott who suggested it!

Regarding the gun shots that fired the empty cartridge cases.When and where [[before the murder]? And even more importantly why were they not found earlier---don"t give us any tired old clap here,simply explain how they came to be in that room before the murder was committed.

[Natalie Severn]

Anyway you haven't convinced me to change my opinion - I still think that from your images Valerie's identikit looks more like Hanratty than Alphon.

KR,
Vic.

Check your spatial intelligence quotient sometime Vic-----or get glasses.I know Valerie was shortsighted which may explain some of this but the truth is her indentikit looks the spitting image of Alphon,taking it feature by feature.You get to your opticians fast !

[Victor]

It was Acott who suggested it!

Hi Norma,

He was asked if it was possible and gave the correct answer.

Regarding the gun shots that fired the empty cartridge cases. When and where [before the murder]?

Explain why that matters, and why the answer - it's impossible to be precise - isn't good enough.

And even more importantly why were they not found earlier---don"t give us any tired old clap here,simply explain how they came to be in that room before the murder was committed.

Again it's impossible to know for certain. We just have to make the best evaluation we have from the available facts, such as:- The bed Hanratty slept in wasn't used until the find, secondly the cartridge cases were lodged between cushion and back of the chair and fell out when the chair was moved for cleaning, and it was only because the manager was there that the cleaner made a thorough job of it.

The cartridge cases either accidentally fell out of his bag or were discarded by him because they had previously been used and weren't useful to him any longer and he forgot to tidy them up and dispose of them properly before he left.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Just so that others may see what I have been discussing and trying to make sense of, I am going to again address the contentious matter of Valerie Storie"s identikit.
viz :This represents Valerie Storie"s impression of the killer.Her later description of "icy blue saucer like eyes" was therefopre a complete contradiction.

[Derrick]

VS's identikit looks nothing like Hanratty.

The other picture has bushier hair which might look like Hanratty but Hanratty had a WP.

I am sure that Mrs France didn't think that VS's picture matched Hanratty. She probably thought that the hair in picture 2 was similar.

Yet Blackhall was a contributor to the second one and he was adamant the driver wasn't Hanratty.

Skillet and Trower testified that they couldn't have seen the drivers hair.

It seems that Hanratty could not be id'ed by the 3 prosecution witnesses without Acott failing to make the id parade safe, by applying skull caps and getting an all cockney line up.

Not convinced of Tunbridge Wells
Derrick
XXX

[jimarilyn]

Check your spatial intelligence quotient sometime Vic-----or get glasses.I know Valerie was shortsighted which may explain some of this but the truth is her indentikit looks the spitting image of Alphon,taking it feature by feature.You get to your opticians fast !

Alphon is indeed a dead ringer for Valerie Storie's identikit [compiled just 3 short days after the murder] Norma. Anyone who says otherwise is either another Mr Magoo or is not being honest with themselves.

There was a male population of about 4 million in London in 1961. My guess is that there'd be at the very least half a million aged between 25 and 35. On this basis let's say there's about 50,000 men aged 30. This was the gunman's age according to Miss Storie. It happened to be the exact age of Alphon too.

I would guess that very very few 30 year old male Londoners in 1961 wore their hair like Peter Alphon. The popular trend would have been to copy it in a style similar to popular singers of the day (Elvis, Cliff Richard, Billy Fury, Marty Wilde et al).

Alphon was brought in for questioning three times by the police. The first occasion [August 27th] was due to his agitated and suspicious behaviour at the Alexandra Court Hotel. The second occasion (according to the Court of Appeal judgment) was on September 7th [was Alphon the man who was questioned for 16 hours at Cannon Row police station on the night of September 6th/7th I wonder ? ]. This second interview/interrogation took place 4 days before the finding of the cartridge cases at the Vienna Hotel. Alphon had told police on August 27th that he had stayed at the Vienna on the night of the murder. The finding of those cartridge cases triggered off a renewed and intense police search for Alphon which was highly publicised in the papers [they even took the unprecedented step of naming him]. This led to their third (!!) interrogation of him which took place on September 23rd. Three interrogations of the prime suspect within 4 weeks.

What odds would William Hill give for an 'Identi-kit dead-ringer' [and the police's Prime Suspect] for Mike Gregsten's murderer being at the hotel in which cartridge cases for the murder weapon were found later ?

Any guesses anyone ?

[babybird67]

brick wall anyone?

[Natalie Severn]

Did I miss something ? Did Babybird drop by then or what?